(6-47) Notre Dame Ability Rework

[pineappledan]

Current Notre Dame

+4 ​

+1 ​

+1 Great Merchant Points​

Free Cathedral​

Starts a Golden Age​

2 Great Works of Art or Artifacts slots (+3 and +3 Points if themed)​

Proposal:
Notre Dame

Must be built in your Holy City​

+4 ​

+1 ​

+1 Great Merchant Points​

Free Cathedral​

All Cities following your religion gain +2 Passive Pressure, scaling with game speed​

Starts a Golden Age​

2 Great Works of Art or Artifacts slots (+3 and +3 Points if themed)​

​

Rationale:
We have 2 world wonders that start a free Golden Age: Notre Dame and Taj Mahal. They are pretty close together, and Chichen Itza (increases GA length by 50%) is sandwiched between them. There are too many GA wonders packed too close together.
We have 2 world wonders that boost active spread (Borobodur and Hagia Sophia), but we don't have a world wonder that boosts passive spread.
If this other proposal to weaken passive spread over time is passed, this wonder will be a tool to keep passive spread powerful and relevant throughout the game.

Complex Proposal: DLL + Database Changes

 

[Diomedes_]

Interesting idea, but isn't +2 passive pressure pretty insignificant? Over 100 turns with 10 cities that's only as much pressure as 2 missionaries, which you get for free (with +1 spread) from Borobodur. I think your idea to have it be a flat bonus to keep pressure relevant in the late game is a good one, but by that time, even with your proposed pressure nerfs, +2 pressure is likely at most going to be like a 5% increase, and at worst less than a 2% increase (if I understand pressure correctly).

Additionally, while I do think this is a cool idea, I do really like how close Notre Dame, Taj Mahal, and Chichen Itza are together. I think there are a lot of cool strategies around that period of the game that seek to stack wonder bonuses, like Notre Dame into Chichen Itza, Leaning Tower into Taj Mahal/Porcelain tower with a Great Engineer, or Chichen Itza into Taj Mahal. While Notre Dame is probably the least important of those mid-game wonders to those strategies, it still adds some cool potential so I'm not super keen on taking away its free Golden Age.

 

[rkkn]

Over 100 turns with 10 cities that's only as much pressure as 2 missionaries

but it's per city affected
so if you have 40 foreign cities in range, it's as much as 80 missionaries
though not all 40 will be in range of all 10, probably, so maybe more like 30 missionaries. which is still a lot. 1 per 3 turns

 

[pineappledan]

Current pressure is +6.5 from all cities to all other cities every turn. This would increase your religion’s base passive pressure, before modifiers, by about 31%

Compare to Hagia Sophia, which strengthens your missionaries by 25% (but also gives you a free GProphet), or Borobudur which makes your missionaries up to 50% stronger (and gives you some free ones too).

In comparison the passive pressure boost seems modest, but consider that passive pressure boosts get more powerful in late game while missionaries get weaker. This is because the religious pressure works off the trade route system, and TR length gets longer as the game progresses, meaning each city gets exposed to more pressure from cities that are further away in the late game.

 

[azum4roll]

the free Cathedral, which also has a GWArt slot.

It doesn't anymore. And you're underestimating theming bonuses. One slot is useless, but two slots with a theme is great. You simply can't call 8 8 3 3 "very weak".

Pressure scales with game speed, so this +2 is way stronger in Marathon than in Standard.

 

[pineappledan]

Ah that's right, we took off all the GW slots from religious buildings. I’ll scrap that part of the proposal.

If pressure scales with game speed, then maybe the bonus should also scale with gamespeed. I don't know how gamespeed affects this, so I'm open to suggestions

 

[Rekk]

If pressure scales with game speed, then maybe the bonus should also scale with gamespeed. I don't know how gamespeed affects this, so I'm open to suggestions

...just have it scale in the exact same way?

If pressure is reduced by 50% Marathon, then the pressure reduction would be reduced by 50% in Marathon.

@azum4roll's point hopefully is just to bring awareness, as it's not really a problem.

 

[Stalker0]

Seems pretty weak for a wonder tbh, way weaker than like a borobadur.

 

[azum4roll]

Base pressure per game speed is defined in the Gamespeeds table.

UPDATE Gamespeeds
SET ReligiousPressureAdjacentCity = 25 WHERE Type = 'GAMESPEED_MARATHON';

UPDATE Gamespeeds
SET ReligiousPressureAdjacentCity = 45 WHERE Type = 'GAMESPEED_EPIC';

UPDATE Gamespeeds
SET ReligiousPressureAdjacentCity = 65 WHERE Type = 'GAMESPEED_STANDARD';

UPDATE Gamespeeds
SET ReligiousPressureAdjacentCity = 95 WHERE Type = 'GAMESPEED_QUICK';

 

[azum4roll]

I sponsor this, but the +2 flat pressure will be modified to become +30% base pressure (stacked multiplicatively with other non-base modifiers). It would be +1.95 in standard, which is close enough.

For reference, India's UA is +10% base pressure per follower.

 

[Hinin]

MAGI - Due to interactions between proposals (6-57a), (6-57b) and this proposal, a common poll will be held on the thread for proposal (6-57a). This thread is locked to allow future discussions to take place there.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.