(8-13a) Hinin/Gwennog/Pdan/Rekk 4UC Egypt

[hokath]

(8-13) 4UC Egypt

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Egyptian civilization. Note: the implementation of the Mamluk attack/move bonus is different in the proposal than from the 4UC implementation. Intend to make the attacks not cost movement. Current implementation...

forums.civfanatics.com

"Monument Builders" What a trash name for a UA. Only beaten by its trash effect which gives +5 and +5 (10 Yields!!) to the Burial Tomb on top of its other bonuses.
It is often remarked that while good on paper, the wonder whoring on Egypt isn't really competitive because (a) it makes you a huge target and (b) the rewards just aren't good enough.
There is a small Golden Age theme in the current UA, expanded in the new UB (Nilometer) which is also unsupported by the UA.
I think it is time we integrated the rework coded up by the fine modders in the thread's title because it fixes all these problems and is also very cool.

Here is the copy paste from the original thread with some notes in blue.
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New UA
UA - Great Ancestor <--This is what they called Ramesses II in the later kingdoms. Very cool.
Reveal a nearby Antiquity Site when you found a City, discover an Ancient Ruin, or build a World Wonder.<--removed ruins, too much variance and people play without
Note:
Following discussion in the thread, we should specify that when you found a City, the Antiquity Site is added to the max number possible,
therefore, like the Burial Tomb before, Egypt increases the total number of artifacts on the map equal to its number of cities.
In contrast, when you build a World Wonder the new site is taken from total number to be placed. I.e. it doesn't lead to more artifacts (the current implementation of Rekk)
Antiquity Sites gain +1 Culture, Science and Faith with each Golden Age (up to +5).
+20% Production towards Wonders (+40% during Golden Ages)

UB (Burial Tomb) replaced by a Antiquity Site-specialized UI
UI - Obelisk
Unlocked at Mining
Must be constructed on a Antiquity Site, and doesn't remove it when doing so <--this still makes you a target, but later when Archaeology comes online

+1 Culture
+1 Science
+1 Faith
+2 Golden Age points <--This supports the Golden Age focus

Tech bonuses :
- +3 at Engineering <--and more points quite quickly
- +2 at Civil Service
- +2 at Architecture
- +2 at Archaeology

+15 % CS to friendly Units within 1 tile

Explanation :
Egypt, with its focus on Wonders, free tile bonuses and potential for Artifact / Landmark stacking, is the quintessential yield bloat / pinata civ (one that you want to conquer to get all its bonuses). Unfortunately, the thrill Egypt's neighbors may feel isn't really present in the Egyptian kit itself, most notably in its way to gain the bonuses : most of the yields come from gaining free artifacts by quickly building the same building in all your cities once Currency is researched. I wanted to find a way to make Egyptian gameplay more interactive, with more lows, but better highs if used correctly and the ability for other civs to clearly see the potential loot they can gain from capturing Egypt.

Because I made Egypt more risky, I also wanted to give it a little more military edge, hence the combat bonus given by the Obelisk : it allows the terrain surrounding the Antiquity Site to become true battlegrounds for Egyptian troops, especially once Archaeology has been researched and other civilization tries to loot Egyptian Obelisks.
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The Mamluk is added as in the original proposal.

 

[Rekk]

+15 % CS to friendly Units within 3 tiles

There's a reason why we made the radius small but the CS high. They're defending the monument, not extending outward into enemy territory.

You've just copied the Shoshone UA, now.

 

[hokath]

Sorry I just copy pasted from the Hinin thread, I didn't change the number.
What should it be?
i.e. the CS %

 

[gwennog]

Thank you Hokath to propose this version of Egypt, it is truly a superb design by Hinin and an equally superb programming work by Rekk to bring it to fruition .

 

[Rekk]

Sorry I just copy pasted from the Hinin thread, I didn't change the number.
What should it be?
i.e. the CS %

I didn't realize that @Hinin changed it, then. My version was +25% at a radius of 1. But I also agree with @pineappledan that it doesn't need to exist at all.

 

[hokath]

I dare say radius 1 isn't AI friendly so probably better without it, then

 

[ma_kuh]

Defense bonus in the tile, though not fitting with it being a defensive structure, is probably calculable by AI.

It's kind of like a CS aura with a radius of 0, if you believe hard enough.

 

[Rekk]

I dare say radius 1 isn't AI friendly so probably better without it, then

The AI just sees that some tiles give its units higher CS than other tiles and factors that into its final decisions.

 

[hokath]

Ok, so you think it probably takes it into account just fine?

Not sure I see the reason Obelisks grant CS at all, outside of magic, but if someone feels strong and wants it back let me know.

 

[ma_kuh]

I think it's fine if a civ needs to reach outside of their UCs to solve problems with their kit. Egypt can easily pick GoProtection if they want a decided homeland advantage to protect their goodies, or any number of policy trees. And they always have forts to build.

 

[Anarcomu]

Not sure I see the reason Obelisks grant CS at all, outside of magic, but if someone feels strong and wants it back let me know.

One of the reason that can warant a CS bonus lore-wise is morale. I think the vanilla Shoshone sort of represent that. Defending what you see as a defining aspect of your culture, like irl France would fight for the Eiffel Tower, or America for the Statue of Liberty. Of course not any wonders in the game should give defend bonus, but it is not coming from thin air.

 

[Stalker0]

I don't see a single rationale for a defense bonus. just clutter at this point

 

[azum4roll]

And none of you bothered to explain the archaeology system. How's the public supposed to vote on this without knowing what consequences this will bring?

 

[Hinin]

One of the reason that can warant a CS bonus lore-wise is morale. I think the vanilla Shoshone sort of represent that. Defending what you see as a defining aspect of your culture, like irl France would fight for the Eiffel Tower, or America for the Statue of Liberty. Of course not any wonders in the game should give defend bonus, but it is not coming from thin air.

There are quite a lot of "morale" effect in VP : Moai / Shoshone Encampments, Heroic Epic, Japanese unique Bushido promotions granting additionnal power when the unit is at its lowest, Elephant / Maori Warrior (fear effect) etc

The goal with the original Obelisks was to provide some way for the Egyptians to better defend their "core tiles", since this is a civ that puts a lot of yields on a single spot. That can be debated of course, and it's not bothering me to see reactions like Stalker0's.

 

[pineappledan]

I really like this change.

In effect it does the same thing as the Burial Tomb, with 2 differences:
- It leaves the Artifacts on the map so they are visible to all players, including Egypt. This is just necessarily more active than a building, because you have to improve/defend them
- It does not inflate the total number of artifacts in the game, because instead of creating new ancient ruins sites, Egypt concentrates the spawning of ancient ruins into its own land instead.
- The UA as implemented ties in the Golden Age bonus, so that Egypt has enough GA benefits and mechanics to actually be a GA civ, instead of having a single, tangential GA bonus

And none of you bothered to explain the archaeology system. How's the public supposed to vote on this without knowing what consequences this will bring?

Yeah this should be remarked upon in the OP.

I agree with others that the tile defense bonus is completely unnecessary for the same reason that it is not on the civ already. Current Egypt already needs to defend its cities from being captured and looted for their extra artifacts, and is already doing that without the benefit of a built-in defense bonus.

 

[gwennog]

And none of you bothered to explain the archaeology system. How's the public supposed to vote on this without knowing what consequences this will bring?

Really very simple, playing Hinin's Egypt Rework.This is the best way to understand rather than long speeches.

 

[Anarcomu]

Is it possible to make the Obelisk prevent rival archeologist from extracting the artifact ? So that you need more than a mere open border agreement to steal Egypt's bounties.

 

[pineappledan]

If this and Hokath’s England are both passed then England will be Kill-On-Sight for Egypt

 

[Stalker0]

- It does not inflate the total number of artifacts in the game, because instead of creating new ancient ruins sites, Egypt concentrates the spawning of ancient ruins into its own land instead.

if that is how it works I think that's a problem. Between lets say a meer 6 cities, they find 3 ancient ruins early, and then 11 wonders (which for the top civ in a game isn't hard at all to do, ESPECIALLY if you get a big bonus to wonder making).... that's 20 ancient sites right there. That's practically all of them on a standard map.

And since the AI smarts shuts down its open borders once its archeology time, you are basically turning off the archeology game when egypt is on the scene.

I don't midn the idea that egypt has tons of extra sites, but if its stealing them from the global pool that's a no go imo

 

[hokath]

There are quite a lot of "morale" effect in VP

Totally get that. I'm more thinking from the design point of view: should one give a combat bonus to cover a civ's biggest weakness? Isn't it more interesting to have an Achilles heel that you have to play around?
Certainly up for debate.

And none of you bothered to explain the archaeology system. How's the public supposed to vote on this without knowing what consequences this will bring?

You can add yourself to the list
As people have now commented, the total number of sites is kept constant. I will update the OP.

if that is how it works I think that's a problem

The converse is also a problem. 20 more artifacts on the map massively unbalances cultural victory if you get your hands on them.

Between lets say a meer 6 cities, they find 3 ancient ruins early, and then 11 wonders

If you get 11 wonders then yes you get a lot of sites.
The more I think about it, the more I think either the city part or the ruins part is superfluous. You can (and lots of people do, as I understand it) play without ruins, so it has to be that one really.
I will update the OP to scratch the ancient ruins part. I think it's unnecessary variance (sometimes you get like 7 ruins!)

And since the AI smarts shuts down its open borders once its archeology time, you are basically turning off the archeology game when egypt is on the scene.

Is it possible to make the Obelisk prevent rival archeologist from extracting the artifact ? So that you need more than a mere open border agreement to steal Egypt's bounties.

This is the intended behaviour. Not really different to how it currently works, just you have more of the sites.