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6otM79 After Action

Discussion in 'Civ6 - Game Of The Month' started by leif erikson, Jan 14, 2020.

  1. Eyswein

    Eyswein Warlord

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    Yes, I took Liang in Antium for the 4 chop workers, then in Rome with Magnus x2 (Provision), Colonization, and Ancestral Hall - I chopped in 4 settlers in about 10 turns total (T51-62 all the settlers with them founding cities on T60-67) - not chopping on turns I'd lose a lot to overflow. If I were to do it over again, I'd want to try taking Monumentality during the Classic Age, put a city to the SW/W of Rome surrounded by more chops, then chopped in lots more cities there, probably to 10-12 cities total.
     
  2. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Took it off Greece, they had built the Oracle and Coli and 2 districts because of their immortal bonus. I just Magnus chopped the others 2.
     
  3. Samouraibapt

    Samouraibapt Chieftain

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    Thanks for the clarification to both of you :)
     
  4. Tarry

    Tarry Chieftain

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    Trajan Cultural Victory. Turn 259. Score 1875.

    - How many cities did you settle, or capture?
    Founded 15, Conquered 13. (Egypt and Greece)

    Egypt got all in my face, denouncing me almost as soon as we met (I had no money to sent a delegation). It all went downhill from there.
    Made some legions and then stomped her bad. A surprise war started with me stealing an escorted settler one-two turns before I was really ready, but the opportunity was too good.
    Cyrus really liked that move by me and soon became my (unreliable) friend
    After wiping Egypt out, Pericles of Greece declared a Surprise war snatching Granada's suzerenity from me. My entire army was on the other side of my empire! A bunch of Greek catapults and swordsmen arrived a few turns later and almost took Rome (down to 0 walls and 0 health) which I held only held by blocking melee attacks on my city with sacrificial units as my legions streamed back across the newly constructed Roman roads across the rough terrain from the captured Egypt cities. The auto-constructed Roman road ability was fantastic and saved me. Periclese was unable to peace out with me until I captured all his cities (including capitol) except for a newly founded one. Rome remembered the humiliation dealt by her enemies and made sure that Greece would not rise from the ashes, the victory propelling me into a golden age as the legions were replaced by musket men through the war.
    Once the ancient/classical wars were open, peace all the way.

    - What did you prioritize for research and policies?
    Ironworking for early Legions
    Pol Phil for government, then Theatre Squares.
    Then I just took whatever seemed most apropriate and needed

    - What did you build for an Army and Navy and how did it change?
    Legions. Built one quadreme and upgraded it. nobody was on the central sea at all.

    Kept units widely distributed for barbarian camps and a bunch of units near to Cyrus, upgraded things when and as I could

    - Did you use your UU/UB? Were they useful?
    Yes. Legions are so strong early on and the ability to repair things is just awesome. I forgot to construct forts with them before I upgraded them, doh!
    Baths were good for supporting cities all over the place. Gave better city placements by not worrying about all the water so much.

    - What was your most useful unit?
    The mighty Legion

    - Was diplomacy useful? How?
    Generally yes. In the greek wars I failed to stop an emergency which saladin joined, this ruined my relationship with him for the rest of the game. But Saladin's troops never showed up Cyrus wouldn't let him through I guess
    After the initial friendship with Cyrus of Persia lapsed, he then always had more military strength than me, he was never willing to declare formal friendship until like 3 turns before victory, so I was always worried about him suddenly declaring a war against me. I kept him sweet with good deals, open borders, trade.
    Saladin hated me no matter what.

    - Were City-States helpful? Did any other civ give you a hard time about city-states?
    Granada, P and J all got turned at one time or another in the greek wars against me. Complete nightmare having these extra troops attack me. That strongly contributed to wiping the Greeks out so I could Suze back these CS's
    The 3 cultural CS's I took and held pretty easily.

    - Did religion play a role in your game?
    Not really. I failed to get a religion, so then I ignored it.

    - What was your strategy, how did you gain your Culture VC?
    Wonders, many Theatre Squares, many Alcazar's and Moi. Many great works (with spies stealing whatever they could from everyone else).
    All the tourism policies, trade route to everyone.
    10 Rock bands visiting Saladin and Cyrus

    - How many cities did you take with military?
    Conquered 13. (Egypt and Greece)

    - How many Dark Ages and/or Golden Ages did you have? Did you have a strategy?
    Normal, then I think golden all the way

    - What effect did Loyalty have on your settling or conquering? How did you mitigate its effects?
    No effect at all. Well, when I built a colony later on to get routes to the eastern civ's I built 2 settlers to support each other.

    - Any surprises you ran into, how did you deal with it?
    The Greek surprise war on the turn I took Egypt was a surprise. As Cyrus was friendly I had though I was safe, I was totally surprised by that declaration.
    Fending off the attack on my capital and succeeding was fun!

    - Did you enjoy your game?
    Very much so.
     

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  5. kcd_swede

    kcd_swede Jag är Viking!½ GOTM Staff

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    RESIGN t371

    Thank you for a very thought-provoking post. I learn a lot from all the strategies you and others post and forever thankful. I do come to the conclusion that the optimal performance in the game requires playing the game engine rather than playing the game. The former is not fun for me, though I am glad it is challenging or fun enough for others, because it helps me have fun too.

    In my first and official play, I was 6t from CV at about turn 300. One or two more Rock Concerts and it would be over. BUT, Cyrus censored Rock & Roll, closed borders to my bands. Gilgamesh had already done so. So I had to ravel all the way to Ottomans, and then they all get disbanded after one turn. Gilga or Saladin started gaining cultuyre faster than my tourism, so I started more war. Then rage quit when fully loaded GDR's wipe out my army and surely would have wiped me out totally.

    So I played again and with largely the same strategy, though more focus on diplo to avoid being dogpiled/war with Cyrus... I was able to win CV:
    CV t264 score 1704.
     

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  6. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    You got there in the end.
    There is a pass in the mountains, you can hold off Cyrus there with 4 archers.
    The Roman 300.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
  7. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    Cultural Victory T148

    Fun game, thanks GOTM team! I planned to focus on Relics and Great Works and also do a modest amount of warmongering both to expand/pillage and to try and knock back whatever AI ended up leading in Domestic Tourists. I pivoted to rushing Flight once I realized Rapa Nui was on the map.

    Opening

    Settled in place and started Scout / (Builder from hut) / Warrior / Settler / Builder / Holy Site / Government Plaza / Ancestral Hall. Got free envoys from Cahokia and Jerusalem. Scored Religious Settlements on T20 and used Settler to claim double Horse spot.

    Amani first to ensure a Golden Age and levy Cahokia. Magus second and then Pingula with 4 promotions. Golden Ages all game, always Monumentality since I was in a cycle of pillage->buy Builder-> spam Moai/Acazar.

    Religion (Reliquaries and Religious Unity) on T59. The turn after founding, I spent all my gold purchasing Egypt’s Relic to get the tourism flowing.

    Spoiler :

    nice land.jpeg
    This spot had some nice flood-enriched soil.


    Wars

    Egypt (T24): They tempted me with an unescorted Builder and I declared to snatch it, then signed peace ten turns later. This was actually a net positive for diplomacy as it made Persia like me for declaring a suprise war.

    Greece (T60): Invaded with 4 Horsemen early, since I figured Greece would be a culture powerhouse down the road unless I stunted them, and I also wanted to pillage their Acroplises to keep all the Great Writers for myself. I captured three cities, which netted me two more Holy Sites plus Stonehenge as well as hundreds of pillage faith.

    Persia (T65): This went much more poorly. Used mostly levied Cahokia troops since my Horsemen all went north. As my units began trickling into position, three Persian cities were ripe for the picking. But by the time I was ready to strike, they had spammed a ridiculuosly carpet of units. I killed a few and pillaged a tile or too but ultimately had to withdraw. Persia refused to sign peace for over 60 turns.


    Spoiler :

    capret of doom.jpeg end of war.jpeg
    The war with Persia went nowhere. They spammed so many Immortals I had not chance of braking through. 40 turns later their army showed up in my land but accomplished absolutely nothing aside from pillaging a Commercial Hub.


    Egypt (T80): I invaded Egypt for real with Horseman, taking three more cities including their capital with Machu Pichu and pillaging at least 1000f thanks to all the Spinx. This provided a nice desert area with forests to chop Pyramids.

    Spoiler :

    Free wonder.jpeg
    Egypt left their capital completely undefended and I was happy to take it off their hands.


    Sumeria (T127): Sumeria conquered Phoenicia very early. I moved a few Horseman there (took forever to march across the map), then levied Hong Kong and Brussels when they arrived. Sumeria instantly broke my Hong Kong levy, but the Brussels troops stayed under my control and I was able to free the Phoenician city of Sidon for a 7th tourism source.

    Spoiler :

    Sidon.jpeg
    Bringing Phoenicia back from the grave was my favorite move of the game.

    Volcano City.jpeg
    I also captured a Settler who was very useful in setting up my first city in trade route range of the Ottomans, Phoenicia, and Sumeria (I had one of my own sailing east but he was still may turns away, probably should have sent him a dozen turns earlier).


    Flight Push

    Up until mid-game I was planning to push for a Relic-heavy victory with Apostles. I had just chopped my first Theater Square when I met Rapa Nui T60 which caused me to shift into rushing Flight. As it was, I was off to a terible start because I had only built two Campus, instead favoring Theater Squares and Commercial Hubs. I slowly rectified this but by the time I shifted direction each Campus cost a lot. Alcazars helped a little bit, and I bought Libraires and parked a citizen there as soon as each Campus was up (had Hypatia too). On the plus side, was able to boost almost every tech on the pathway with the exception of Industrialization (never built an IZ), including Flight itself with a last minute spree of buying and chopping 4 forest tiles to complete Bolshoi. In the end I hit Flight T135.

    Spoiler :

    Moai madness.jpeg
    Moai are ridiculous. A single late game Builder can lay down 5 or 6 Moai in a cluster for 24 tourism. In reality these might be worth a little more or a little less based on terrain, but its pretty gross that even a single good Moai is better than a Great Writer or Wonder.


    Tourism Sources

    Tourism Rome.jpeg

    Alcazars/Moai (38%): The turn Flight completed tourism almost tripled from 127 to 339. From there on out I did nothing but complete my last trade routes and spam improvements, ending up with 73 Moai and 25 Alcazars!

    Wonders (24%) Got Temple of Artemis (T52), Hanging Gardens (T93, suprised it was around so late), Pyramids (T95), Mt St. Michel (T111), Mahaboudhi Temple (T112) and Bolshoi (T131). Captured Stonehenge and Machu Picchu as well.

    Relics (21%): Build Mount St. Michel mostly with production in the capital and chopped out Mahabodhi Temple. I bought two more Apostles but mostly used faith for Builders instead. It took me a while to find enemy religious units to fight - ended up getting relics on T128, T131, T137, and T140. I neglected to spread my own religion so only 3 of the 5 relics were in cities with Reliquaries.

    Books (7%): Theater Squares were terrible this game due to the stupid World Congress banning GW points. I hit my first Great Writer T82 and second T90 but had to wait all the way till T127 and T137 for the next two. I ignored Printing Press until after Flight, so did no get it until T142.

    Holy City (5%): Helped a bit by the fact that most of the game 4AIs had got religion (so no penalty).

    Walls (3%): Only built Ancient Walls. Actually needed some for defense this game.

    Art (2%): Got one Great Artist on T125, completed Art Museum T133.

    Music (<1%): Hilariously a Great Musician showed up the turn before the game ended and so contributed 0.07% of overall tourism

    Artifacts (0%): I actually did build an Archeology Museum, never bought an Archeologist because gold/faith was much better used on Builders.

    Thoughts

    My biggest mistake was sending my Scout northwest instead of northeast. For some reason I thought the map was Seven Seas, not Inland Sea, and so did not realize the water I spoted was the big lake and more AIs + city states would be east. The reason this had such a negative impact is I met Rapa Nui much later than if I had gone east. By that time I had placed a lot of Theater Squares when I would have been much better off with Campus. Really it is my own fault though, I should probably still have pushed for Flight with Granada anyway…

    The Civilpedia does not say when Moai culture doubles, so I was not clear on what I should be teching towards for that. For me this the doubling happened when I completed Diplomatic Service, so I am guessing it is any Industrial Era Civic? Or maybe Tech or Civic?

    I ended up with one Moai on top of coal because I built it before it was revealed, but I believe it could not have been built after Coal was revealed. A very specific and minor point but going for Flight tourism it could in some cases be better not to reveal Coal/Oil/Uranium if possible.

    I feel pretty strongly warmongering was better than peace would have been in my game. Even though I lost Open Borders for a good part of the game, I gained enough faith and gold for a ton of Builders from pillaging which allowed me to chop key wonders and spam Moai/Alcazars. Sumeria was my firend almost the entire game but had 0 gold after a few early trades, so I suspect their might not have been enough trade gold from the other AIs to be more lucrative than war (plus, I could usually sell a ton of things to them on the turn each war ended).
     

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  8. Bangau

    Bangau Warlord Supporter

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    T193 CV:
    Spoiler screenshot :
    20200123210900_1.jpg 20200124182939_1.jpg


    Played it like this:
    - Get a lot of faith
    - Faith buy settlers and builders
    - Chop a lot
    - Build a lot of moai and alcazar
    - rush for conservation and flight

    I overdid the chopping a bit for early holy sites which made the campuses I needed after that a bit harder to get.

    Cyrus was being... well Cyrus, and 'suprised' me with a war I prepared for. Greece joined in after I took a city. Cyrus had some units, Greece barely any so I could easily take most of their cities. Weakening the stronger culture civs (Greece mainly) was what I intended from the start, so the game gave that to me as a little present.

    I was aiming for a sub 200 win and was happy to get it. I neglected my 'trade routes to the other side of the world' by mistake. I was surprised that from turn 170 or so Gilgamesh started to really build up a tourism defense. If he hadn't I might have won a turn or 10 sooner.

    Very fun game to play, interesting map (even though I normally dislike the inland sea map) and a lot of choices that made the game interesting. Thanks GOTM team!
     
  9. Bangau

    Bangau Warlord Supporter

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    @Minou : impressive game! How do you get the exact data on where your tourism comes from?
     
  10. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    @Bangau: Thanks! I just have an Excel sheet and jot down the amount of tourism from each source each turn. Usually it is just copy and pasting the previous row unless you add a Great Work or Wonder or something. It is a bit of work but I find it helps me learn what is important to focus on and what is just a distraction. In this game for example the chart suggests it would be worth skipping Theater Squares altogether if it helped get Flight a few turns over.

    In some past games I actually tracked the precise number by checking what each AI is sending, but this is way more work since that can chance based on different government, different religion, trade routes and open borders. So lately, I just track to total from each source.
     
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  11. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Did you sell a relic or lose a city?
    The pillaging gains through war make it to useful to ignore.
     
  12. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    I think that dip may actually be a mistake, sorry. Never lost a city it sold a great work. I used to track average of whether relics and holy city were giving full tourism or less due to different religions and enlightenment but that gets really tedious so this game I just did a rough estimate that Relics were about 16 tourism average most of the game since about half the AI has different religion.
     
  13. Casualty of war

    Casualty of war Warlord

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    Yeah, looking back on game progress if I would have picked a fight with Cyrus around Turn 180 when I got Flight, even just a disruptive pillaging war, I would have shaved an immense number of Turns off my game. Thank you much for sharing your game tracking, Minou.

    Spoiler :
    upload_2020-1-25_13-33-1.png
     
  14. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    @Victoria I went back and checked. The dip is a silly mistake on my part. I got a Great Artist but had no Art Museum. So, I moved a Relic out of the capital to a city with a Temple that did not have my religion to make room for the Art. I got +3 tourism from the Art but my Relic went from 24 to 8 tourism due to not having Reliquaries for a net -13. I moved the Relic to a Temple in a city with my Religion 3 turns later.
     
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  15. Fivethumbs

    Fivethumbs Chieftain

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    T200-202 CV

    GoTM79 - t200 CV.png


    General overview:


    Plan was to do peaceful CV. Found Relic in the first hut, hence quick Pantheon & extra settler. Met Cyrus & Cleopatra soon enough, and luckily random Cyrus agenda was immediately full-filled, so was able to befriend both at t43. At this point decided not to build any army at all, as I felt safe until t73 at least. Throughout a game I kept 4 alliances running full time (Egypt, Cyrus, Sumeria and the guy in top right corner), traded resources for cash every second turn (such a chore...) Nasty Pericles settled cities rather close to me, and went he went into dark age, it was matter of time when these cities start flipping. When I saw Pericles troops moving, added walls & warriors -> legion just in time

    Spoiler t104 suprise war from Pericles :

    GoTM79 - t104 SW from Greece.png


    After taking some cities from Pericles, found RapaNui city state, hard-built Pyramids far south (somehow was still available) and started converting the landscape into Moais & Alcazars & Ski resorts with 6-charge builders (for ~30 turns all my cities were building just the builders). In the last era it was some random wonder-building hoping to close it down with RockBands quickly. Rock bands went online on t175, bought five-six of them immediately, and all but one of them died after the first concert on the same turn (and the "best one" expired after three concerts, so not too good either), removing chances for my first sub t200 CV :)

    Spoiler t200-t202 CV :

    GoTM79 - t202 win.png


    Ages
    :
    Golden (religious one to get religion faster + quick spread with couple of missionaries) -> Golden (monumentality) -> Normal -> Golden (wonders building one)

    Very tight & interesting race this time. Grabbed Classical golden age on the last turn by double-chopping splendid campus (exactly the number of missing hammers); and grabbed Medieval golden age on the last turn as well by completing all beliefs in my religion (spent ~7 charge apostle to do that). However missed Renaissance golden age by couple of points - if only I knew that levying city state troops give era points, so next time will be smarter. Then golden industrial by very large margin.

    Lesson learned to check the timer ahead of time - i.e., send Amani on suzerainity-hopping for those +3 every first time or smth like that.

    Religion:
    As always, went with Jesuit education, then also stronger pressure + cant remember. Then I thought Jesuit education would be useless, as I was always short of faith (first for apostles, then for builders, one settler), but in renessaince it finally kicked in, and I was able to buy quite a few buildings). In the end it was just rock bands.

    Spoiler t175 - Rock bands :

    GoTM79 - t175 rock bands.png


    Mistakes to learn from:
    * Spies - my old love, but it was not worth it at all this game. Invested into Gvmt Plaza tier-2 building, 4-5 spies, kept Machiavelism in policies all the time, later also Cryptography, all just for fun. Horrible idea :)
    * Trade Routes - quite unexplainable, but only had routes to two civs only (Egypt and Persia).
    * Dont underestimate angry CS. Lost a quite nice city (with +4 HolySite + buildings) to Preslav post t100... Even bought 3 horsemen to defend it (in other nearby cities), but it was all too late by 1 turn, and city got razed.
    * ...

    Questions (would be grateful if someone commented:)) :
    * Is trading 1 resource (i.e., horse, iron, niter) for 1 gold-per-turn considered an exploit, or not? Noticed that after AI spends all the cash on the resources, and if AI still desires that resource, it starts agreeing to 1 resource for 1 gpt deals.
    * Is "Free Settler" pantheon an auto-pick, or not? (i.e., at least this game Pastures culture seemed potentially to be stronger, but was it really?)
     

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  16. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    It is treading the line a bit but I do not believe anyone has made a hard and fast rule. Certainly trading 1 for 1 10 times in a turn is clearly exploiting it. But doing one for one once every turn? Trading with a broke AI is definitely an exploit though. If they have no gold they cannot trade but still seem to be able to and pay you handsomely for it.
    Bottom line is some will always squeeze whatever advantage they can out to get a shorter time and I would not really worry about fastest, just enjoy your game and if wanting it fast, getting below T200 is always a good target.
    In this game, 3 culture CS and Rapa Nui devalue pastures out of existence. In another game with no culture wonders, luxuries or CS then pastures are worth more consideration, but they do not scale well with time so only give a small boost early. Sometimes god of the sea may be better than an extra settler if you have Auckland for example but generally the extra settler has a big impact, especially as now the SV does not rely on GP so much.
     
  17. Hactar

    Hactar Chieftain

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    Apparently I have a lot to learn about culture victories. I normally play Emperor. And I try and play peacefully, which isn’t very conducive to fast victories I guess. Finished this one at T312. Both Cyrus and Saladin were pumping out culture so I didn’t really get ahead until Pericles declared on me towards the end and I went on a pillaging rampage to get enough faith to spam some naturalists and rock bands.

    I got beat to some key wonders. I need to chop more.

    I may try and play it again using some of the strategies mentioned here. In particular since I’m used to going for science I didn’t prioritize faith early... I think that was a mistake. I went for the T3 and T4 governments - maybe should have stuck with Theocracy. I don’t know.
     
  18. Minou

    Minou Prince

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    @Hactar

    Fourth tier governments are not usually that helpful for Cultural Victory. There is a tourism penalty from Civ that have different Governments, so it often makes sense to use the one that most Civs are in, and they usually don't make it to tier 4 for a very long time.

    My personal concept is that Cultural Victory on lower difficulties can be accomplished with just "normal" things like wonders, Great Works, and Artifacts but that on higher difficulty you are either rushing to Flight or Rock Bands. This leads to three very different play styles.

    On Prince or lower, I recommend pushing quick Theater Squares and building as many as possible, saving gold or forest-chops to get Amphitheaters and Museums up, and also going for Wonders in high production / chop-rich cities. The early wonders are best because they cost less, start generating tourism early, and their tourism rate grows as you reach new eras. Watch out though because some, especially Stonehenge and Great Bath seem to always get scooped up by the AI and it is in my opinion risky to even start them for fear of losing the race and wasting production.

    If there is a city state that lets you build tourism-generating tile improvements like Rapa Nui or La Venta, I recommend pushing Science to get beeline Flight (many of the techs on the path require advance planning to complete in time, especially Buttress and Flight itself). You can basically ignore everything else and spam those improvement like crazy. Some Civs have their own unique improvement that generates culture (e.g. Chateau) and if so it will also generate tourism at flight.

    In high difficulty games without such improvements, the AIs usually progress too rapidly to get enough tourists without resorting to Rock Bands (or playing a very long game). In these games Culture matters more than Science. If you are playing peacefully it is wise to build lots of Holy Sites, but if you are willing to do some warmongering you can often get 200+ faith per pillage (so close to 1000 for pillaging down a Holy Site with 3 buildings) and a few mounted units running wild can give you lots of "free" Rock Bands.

    I suppose there is a fourth way too if you happen to find Yerevan and/or Kandy you can certainly win early with Reliquaries.
     
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  19. Hactar

    Hactar Chieftain

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    For improvements that generate culture (I did build quite a few Alcazar in this game actually), does the tile have to be worked to get the tourism?
     
  20. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    Nope
     
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