[Vote] (7-09 & 7-10) Shoshone and Huns Proposals

[Recursive]

Voting Instructions
Players, please cast your votes in the poll above. Vote "Yea" for every proposal you'd be okay with if it were implemented. Vote "Nay" if you'd be okay if these proposals weren't implemented. You can vote for any number of options.

All votes are public. If you wish, you can discuss your choice(s) in the thread below. You can change your vote as many times as you want until the poll closes.

Host Note: Proposals 9 and 9a are mutually exclusive, but either of them can be passed with either 10 or 10a (which are also mutually exclusive).

VP Congress: Session 7, Proposal 9
Discussion Thread: (7-08-1 & 7-09) Polynesia/Shoshone/Huns Changes
Proposer: @azum4roll
Sponsor: @azum4roll

Proposal Details
Current Shoshone UA:
Cities claim up to 8 tiles on Founding and 4 tiles on Conquest. All Recon Units can choose rewards from Ancient Ruins. Units gain +20% Combat Strength within 3 tiles of an owned Encampment.

Current Huns UA:
Inflict +100% and receive -50% War Weariness. +10% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn. Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type.

Problems:

• Last congress moved Moai's combat strength aura to Encampment.
• Shoshone is designed to be a forward settler with their borders being dangerously close to other civs' cities. The combat aura essentially allows them to have +20% CS deep into enemy territory (as long as there's one flat tile near their borders). May I remind you that Sweden only gets +20% CS on attack. In short, the Shoshone has more combat bonuses than they were designed for.
• On the other hand, actual AI autorun tests show them underperforming, likely due to the AI not being able to pick ruins, and always picking Authority instead of Progress which fits them best. Authority civs don't perform well for the AI in general.
• The Encampment text is a mouthful. It has a +15% defense bonus for a unit stationed on it, and another +20% CS bonus for any Shoshone unit 3 tiles around it, while also doing 5 damage to all adjacent enemies. Its build tooltip is longer than Feitoria's.
• There's no interest in teaching AI to pick ancient ruins, and some people still play with ruins off. We have no choice but to remove that part of the UA, if we want Shoshone to not be bottom tier.
• The Huns get more tiles, but unlike Russia who gets yields from border expansion and Shoshone who gets a combat bonus in owned territory, the Huns get nothing out of this part of their UA, other than the tiles.
• The +10% multiattack bonus was underwhelming on France as the lone combat bonus, and it's no different on Huns. They need to rely on Horse Archers who have +20% multiattack, but once upgraded their stats are low as any other skirmisher unit.

Proposed Shoshone UA:
Cities claim up to 8 tiles on Founding and can grow an additional ring. Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type. Units gain +20% Combat Strength in friendly territory.
(This means a Shoshone city can naturally grow to radius 6, and have some tiles in radius 7 if lucky) Host Note: And also, the Encampment loses the combat aura.

Proposed Huns UA:
Inflict +100% and receive -50% War Weariness. +10% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn. Gain 1 for every 2 damage dealt to enemy Cities, scaling with Era.
(The yields are given to the city owning the unit that deals damage, or capital if none is found)

In summary:

• The combat aura is removed from the Encampment.
• Shoshone land units get the Pride of the Ancestors promotion again (+20% CS in friendly territory)
• Shoshone loses extra tiles on conquest, gains claiming extra tiles and can grow to radius 6.
  • Now 100% focusing on gaining tiles and the passive aggressive play style. Bait your enemies into attacking you, then beat them with the +20% CS in your land (which is everywhere)!
• Huns loses claiming extra tiles, and gains when dealing damage to cities.
  • Unlike the old French UA, this is not a win-more ability. You don't need to capture cities to gain yields.
  • Also has synergy with the multiattack bonus, and inflicts war weariness if this proposal passes.

VP Congress: Session 7, Proposal 9a
Discussion Thread: (7-09a) Shoshone and Huns Change
Proposer: @pineappledan
Sponsor: @pineappledan (database) & @azum4roll (DLL)

Proposal Details

Spoiler Shoshone :

Current Shoshone UA:

• Cities claim up to 8 tiles on Founding and 4 tiles on Conquest.
• All Recon Units can choose rewards from Ancient Ruins.
• Units gain +20% Combat Strength within 3 tiles of an owned Encampment. (note: 3 tile radius is a bug)

Proposed Shoshone UA (changes Underlined)

• Claim up to 4 tiles whenever you Gain a City (4 on settle/4 on conquest, down from 8 on settle/4 on conquest)
• Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type. (moved from Huns)
• Units gain +20% Combat Strength within 2 tiles of an owned Encampment.
• All Recon Units can choose rewards from Ancient Ruins.

Spoiler Shoshone rationale :

• Equalize the settle/capture free tiles to 4/4. It saves on precious text space, and the star of the show is now the bonus adjacent tile picker which is moved over from the Huns.
• Reducing the combat radius from 3 tiles to 2 is more like a bug fix. The original proposal was to set it to 2, but it was implemented at 3. That amount of projection this gives is excessive, 3 is practically everywhere.
• I don't like the ruins picker; with how ruins were rebalanced it just seems pointless. I would remove it if it were up to me, but I don't think it's hurting anything that much and some people really like it.

Spoiler Huns :

Current Huns UA:

• Inflict +100% and receive -50% War Weariness.
• +10% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn.
• Claim adjacent unowned land tiles when Cities claim a tile of the same type.

Current Eki

• 500 Build Time (Divided by 90 for an unmodified Worker, rounded up to 6 Turns)
• Must be built on flat grassland/plains with no access to fresh water.
• May be built in neutral tiles adjacent to Hunnic territory, encouraging cities to expand to that improvement.
• +1 Food
• +1 Production
• +1 Culture
• +1 Production and +1 Gold if built next to 2 Ekis.
• +1 Food and Production and -100 Build Time at Chivalry.
• +1 Food at Fertilizer.
• +3 Production at Robotics.

Proposed Huns UA (changes Underlined)

• Inflict +100% and receive -50% War Weariness.
• +10% Combat Strength for each subsequent attack against a single target during a turn.
• Gain 1 for every 2 damage dealt to enemy Cities, scaling with Era.

note: The yields are given to the city owning the unit that deals damage, or capital if none is found

Proposed Eki (changes Underlined)

• 600 Build Time (Divided by 90 for an unmodified Worker, rounded up to 7 Turns)
• Must be built on flat grassland/plains with no access to fresh water.
• May be built in neutral tiles adjacent to Hunnic territory. Instantly Claims the tile on completion if not already owned. (NewOwner ability)
• +1 Food
• +1 Production
• +1 Culture
• +1 Production and +1 Gold if built next to 2 Ekis.
• +1 Food and Production and -100 Build Time at Chivalry.
• +1 Food at Fertilizer.
• +3 Production at Robotics.

Spoiler Huns Rationale :

• With the Huns tile claimer gone, the Eki's ability to guide this claimer by being built outside your land doesn't have much of a purpose except to give you some adjacencies sooner. If the tile just got automatically claimed then there is a rather strong reason to keep this ability around
• It would remain to be seen how abusable this would be, but Ekis are blocked by resources, rough terrain, and rivers, so they do have some hard limits that prevent them from just being spread everywhere in unbroken lines. It would also take a very long time to chain them out like that, and for not much benefit. I propose to slow down the improvement speed a bit to compensate.

Spoiler Sponsor notes: :

The new damage on Hun city attacks is new code, but should work similar to existing gold from city damage ability which is on a unit promotion.
The rest is reshuffling or number changes on existing abilities.
The NewOwner ability appears to work, but apparently it makes the improvement built on the tile permanent (???) That should probably be changed in the code.

VP Congress: Session 7, Proposal 10
Discussion Thread: (7-10) Shoshone UA Addition: "Start With Ancient Era Resources Revealed"
Proposer: @Legen
Sponsor: @Legen

Proposal Details

Spoiler Shoshone's current UA and Ancient Era resources :

Great Expanse
Cities claim up to 8 tiles on Founding and 4 tiles on Conquest. All Recon Units can choose rewards from Ancient Ruins. Units gain +20% Combat Strength within 3 tiles of an owned Encampment.

Ancient Era resources:
Fish (Pottery)
Deer and Bison (Trapping)
Stone (The Wheel)
Horses, Cattle and Sheep (Animal Husbandry)
Iron (Bronze Working)

Proposal

• Shoshone's UA gains "Start with Ancient Era resources revealed."
  • If proposal 9 or 9a passes, this UA effect is in addition to the changes in that proposal.

Rationale
An idea to help Shoshone, who has been underperforming considerably for many patches. This effect is meant to support their ability to claim extra tiles, giving them an early economic boost and better information on where to settle.



VP Congress: Session 7, Proposal 10a
Discussion Thread: (7-10a) Shoshone UA Addition: "Starts With All Bonus Resources Revealed"
Proposer: @usadefcon1
Sponsor: @Legen

Proposal Details
Proposal

• Shoshone's UA gains "Starts with All Bonus Resources Revealed."
  • If proposal 9 or 9a passes, this UA effect is in addition to the changes in that proposal.

Rationale
A different variation on (7-10) to help Shoshone see which direction to expand.
I think bonus resources are more thematic with Shoshone.

 

[pineappledan]

This was stated in the proposal post, but I will restate here

Now 100% focusing on gaining tiles and the passive aggressive play style. Bait your enemies into attacking you, then beat them with the +20% CS in your land (which is everywhere)!

Removing the tiles on conquest doesn't incentivize this at all. It just incentivizes raze-resettle. Something that the AI is bad at.

Shoshone is designed to be a forward settler with their borders being dangerously close to other civs' cities. The combat aura essentially allows them to have +20% CS deep into enemy territory (as long as there's one flat tile near their borders). May I remind you that Sweden only gets +20% CS on attack. In short, the Shoshone has more combat bonuses than they were designed for.

The combat bonus is projecting 3 tiles out currently, and that is an implementation bug. It was never supposed to extend as far as it does now. It was also implemented in its current form by @azum4roll, who is now proposing to revert the change.

While I think that the error was an innocent mistake, implementing something differently than what was proposed and then using that as justification to remove it entirely is, imo, bad form.

 

[Rekk]

it just incentivizes raze-resettle

How?

 

[pineappledan]

The proposal is to remove the 4 free tiles on conquest. If that's more tiles than the city you have captured then there is an incentive to raze and get more land. The ability was put on Shoshone to make them more ambivalent towards raze vs annex in the event that they do conquer; removing the capture bonus in no way disincentivizes conquering in the first place.

plus it's an ability that already exists so may as well use it.

 

[pineappledan]

re: the ancient/bonus resource vision, I think it's a neat idea, but it should have been proposed as a replacement to the ruins picker ability rather than a pure addition. Having 2 different bonuses that cease to exist after ancient era on the same civ would be very lopsided.

 

[pineappledan]

@Recursive you probably aren't able to change this now, but you numbered all the voting options as congress 9-XX instead of 7-XX.

 

[Zuizgond]

It would remain to be seen how abusable this would be, but Ekis are blocked by resources, rough terrain, and rivers, so they do have some hard limits that prevent them from just being spread everywhere in unbroken lines. It would also take a very long time to chain them out like that, and for not much benefit. I propose to slow down the improvement speed a bit to compensate.

I like @pineappledan's proposal but I'm a bit concerned about the absurdly long chain you could create, especially in snow tiles.

 

[pineappledan]

I forget that snow UIs are a thing because my Inuit mod blocks as many of them as I could.

I'm a bit concerned about the absurdly long chain you could create, especially in snow tiles

To what end, tho?

 

[Zuizgond]

To what end, tho?

Blocking passage to civs that don't have open borders agreement with you. But I agree it's a bit situational.

 

[pineappledan]

That is at least 1 intended use for this. Huns’ own warmonger flavours prevent it from being too useful for blocking continents on account of trying to murder your neighbours giving them open borders.

 

[azum4roll]

I disagree with lumping the combat aura swap with the other parts of UA changes instead of being on its own. This and (7-08) creates a scenario where it's possible to have the combat aura on both Polynesia/Moai and Shoshone/Encampment, or neither of them.

 

[azum4roll]

Repeating my comment on Discord:

Why not put the (combat aura) swap on a separate proposal? It doesn't conflict with any of the other proposals.

 

[Rekk]

a Shoshone city can naturally grow to radius 6, and have some tiles in radius 7 if lucky

This killed 7-09, in my opinion.

7-10 and 7-10a: This should have been a replacement for the Ruins Picker ability. However, people don't like flat out removing something without compensation, so if it passes here, I think it will be difficult to just remove the Ruins Picker next congress.

 

[Recursive]

Timestamp post to arrange all the threads in a neat order.