(7-38a) Wholesome Authority Scaler

[pineappledan]

Counterproposal to https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/7-46a-swap-authority-and-imperialism-scalars.689154

This proposal is to implement @Enginseer 's Wholesome Authority scaler rework into main VP:

[Extension] - Enginseer's Wholesome Tweaks (VERSION 12!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Overview Enginseer's Wholesome Tweaks is another tweak mod for Vox Populi so users can test things out that I did not get to propose in the World Congress or testing a few things out. These are all modular, so you can delete the changes you don't like! For the sake of easiness to read, I've put...

forums.civfanatics.com

Opener:
Reduce on kills from 100% to 50%
Add on kills at 50%
+1 to all cities is unchanged
Barb detection and for clearing barb camps unchanged.

Dominance:
Remove 100% on kills
Add +1 in all cities for every 10 military units on empire.

Scaler:
Remove on cities
Add +10% on kills

Turns on-kill bonus into the scaler, moves the global bonus onto dominance
Pushes back full 100% that you can get with 2 policies now back to full adoption of tree.
Replaces 5 flat in all cities with a growing, unit-based bonus. You need 50 units on empire to replicate the old bonus, which will take a long time.
The policy is similar to how Fealty's Fiefs ability already works, which appears to have been well-received

This preserves total potential power of the tree, but delays that power until further into the tree so Authority's start isn't as frontloaded.
The yields per unit on empire is a new policy ability, though a trait version of the ability already exists, so the coding backend already exists (France UA)


Complex Proposal: DLL + Database Changes needed, pineappledan will assist with database changes

 

[Stalker0]

To ultimately comes down to how much you want to nerf Authority in general.

The OG proposal gives a soft nerf, in line with the soft progress nerf also proposed. This version is overall I would argue a much bigger nerf to Authority, for a few key reasons:

• The culture is slowed down, so you will move through the Authority tree a good bit slower than you did before. Even if everything else was the same, that alone would be a noticeable nerf.
• The production bonus is massively nerfed. To even get to 20 units will take a good bit of time, and by the time you get 30/40 units you will past the window where the hammers were doing the best benefit before.
• Previously I think there was debate on whether to go left or right side first with Authority, and I would argue there were situations for both. This version to me is pure left side first without question, as the production scaler takes long enough to kick in you can afford to wait on getting the right side. Also the weakness of left side before was not getting any science, which has been removed. So I do think this version of the tree is more "inflexible" than the current version.
• Now there is one buff here, you do get science earlier, a good bit more if you go left side first. So you might see some tech improvement in very early authority wars, and that can be quite useful. But without the hammers bonuses, I don't think Authority will be able to leverage that better science into a much better army... and so ultimately it looks like a wash to me on the science department in general. In summary, this is a buff to science for a left focus Authority style, but I don't think the buff outweighs the nerfs in any sense.

All of this said, this is not a bad proposal. I think its a well crafted design that feels "wholesome". I just think its a bigger nerf than Authority needs. But if you do think Authority needs a big cut, I would say this is a very good way to go about it.

 

[pineappledan]

I do hope to implement a small buff with the change to discipline. Not an overall yields increase, but a flexibility increase.

 

[Rekk]

At what point do you expect authority to own 50 units?

 

[CppMaster]

Renessaince probably

 

[AndreyK]

I think that 1 production for 5 units will be enough.

 

[pineappledan]

The number of 1 per 10 was chosen in light of the France rework tests which seem to indicate 1 per 10 is the right amount. If 1 per 10 is too weak for a policy then it’s definitely too weak for a trait.

Also if party leadership is any indication flat yields per city are a reliable bonus at all game stages. That tenet is great.

 

[AndreyK]

But for France there are captured units which do not count for supply.

 

[pineappledan]

Noted, and France’s entire identity is structured around maxing this specific kind of bonus. Proposing to add a second source of yields should at the very least not upstage a civ’s core design. Also if you create a stronger scaler as a policy france can simply adopt it and more than double the power of their UA.

 

[Rekk]

Also if you create a stronger scaler as a policy france can simply adopt it and more than double the power of their UA.

Instead of just doubling it

 

[Stalker0]

Renessaince probably

maybe late Renaissance, your not going to see that before bastion forts unless you are really wide or just all coastal.

Lets also keep in mind that Authority will make units slower than they did before, so it will take longer to get to any given supply number.

 

[hokath]

Perhaps the implementation can be flexible on the denominator. So a later change could make it 1/8 units if it's found to be too weak.

 

[Enginseer]

Reminder, the opener still has +1 Production in every City so they'll still have some lead!

 

[Stalker0]

Reminder, the opener still has +1 Production in every City so they'll still have some lead!

@pineappledan you'll want to update your OP if that's the case, as the current way its written I would say it really implies the prod bonus is not there.

 

[pineappledan]

updated

 

[rkkn]

This is a big nerf, but that might be ok. The main thing I don't like about this is it's replacing a flat bonus with a scaling bonus. We should be doing the opposite of that for ancient trees whenever possible.

 

[AndreyK]

I think that too much of nerf.

 

[hokath]

The main thing I don't like about this is it's replacing a flat bonus with a scaling bonus.

While I share the sentiment, the point at which the scaling production bonus outstrips the old +5 bonus, I imagine the extra hammers are going to be fairly insignificant.

 

[pineappledan]

Sponsor note:

This proposal requires the addition of the following new abilities:
Yields in all cities for every X military unit on empire(new Policy table)​

An existing trait ability already works identically to this. It should be relatively easy to implement.​

the rest is SQL and text work that I would be able to assist with

 

[axatin]

I sponsor this.