Legen
Emperor
- Joined
- Sep 13, 2015
- Messages
- 1,498
Original proposal:
(8-24) 4UC Japan
Incompatible with:
(8-24a) 4UC Japan - Less katanas, more reworks
(8-24b) Japanese medley proposal
(8-24d) Japan: just Kondei + Torii, change nothing else
Proposal
Rationale
This proposal mainly tweaks the UA for an additional focus on Engineers, and replaces the Dojo for the Tatara, one of the oldest recorded structures in Japan and known for using ironsand as a viable source of iron. These changes take inspiration from the cultural importance of their blacksmiths, with some of the most skilled producing blades that are today considered national treasures, and inspiring myths and tales that remain relevant in Japan's popular imagination. This offers historical ground for these smiths (as Engineers) to act as a trigger for the
GWAM progress, and for a dedicated UB around them.
These changes make Japan's early game more flexible and varied. An old complaint was that Japan is pigeonholed into Authority for its
Great General 
Faith purchase; adding Great Engineers means Tradition (which unlocks Engineer Faith purchase) has just as much merit. Similarly, the tweaked UA and the Tatara open synergies with more pantheons (God of Fire, Goddess of Beauty, Goddess of Wisdom, Tutelary Gods) than the current UA, which pigeonholes Japan towards Goddess of Protection.
These changes also address an old complaint regarding GWAM triggers in the early game, and during peacetime. Because Japan currently lacks unique military bonuses before Steel, the military GP trigger is often gated to Medieval Era, especially in higher difficulties. Having the "Eight Virtues of Bushido" in the UA means that going early for military GPs is more reasonable (and more friendly to AI Oda's Conqueror personality). And adding one economic GP workable in Ancient Era addresses both the early game and the peacetime issues, giving Japan something to work towards when not at war.
The unlocked Hokora, a type of miniature Shinto shrine common in Japan, has 2 slots for Great Works, with a variation for each type of slot: writing, art/artifact and music. This borrows from Venice's Piazza San Marco's mechanic, and is meant to address the possibility of Japan triggering the UA faster than they can unlock buildings with the needed slots for Great Works, regardless of type.
On the martial side, most of the Dojo's abilities are redistributed to the UA and the Samurai. The "Wounded Units fight with additional strength" that was originally in the UA, many versions ago, had gone to the Dojo (with some tweaks, a.k.a. "Eight Virtues of Bushido") to open space for an experimental UA (Sakoku), which essentially gated Japan's kit to Steel. As explained before, moving it back to the UA means the GWAM trigger is less gated by technology. And the Samurai gets the the yields from combat, so that the UU's current playstyle and feel are largely preserved. The rationale is that, in practice, the Samurai's playstyle comes mainly from the Dojo's abilities due to both unlocking at the same time. As such, it makes sense to transfer the Dojo's abilities to the UA and the Samurai, and let the (new) UB focus on something else.
Notably, these changes should interact better with the new 4UC components. Because the Tatara asks for more reliance on specialists (including an extra Engineer slot), you have a strong incentive to run
Internal 
Food trade routes, which steers Japan towards the same isolationist theme that the Kabuki promotes. And having Art/Music theming before Industrial/Modern Era can power up the Kabuki's yields on GWAM birth. Meanwhile, the Yamato benefits from the extra 
Production that comes with a longtime focus on Engineers to cover her additional cost.
The Tatara's free iron and the unlocked Hokora are based on historical elements, and aren't expected to help in Ancient Era. The Tatara was an unique type of furnace that existed since the 6th century and is remarked for being capable of producing iron from ironsand, an abundant resource in Japan that was largely untapped in the rest of the world; the West would first invent a method of doing so in the 18th century. It was efficient enough to play an important role in their economy, complementing the iron supply from the "mochi tetsu" (a native iron ore of similar quality to Swedish ores) and foreign imports. In game, the Tatara's free iron is expected to act roughly the same: not enough to dismiss iron tiles as a low priority, but complementing them enough that Japan's UUs aren't fully crippled by bad map RNG.
That the Tatara unlocks the Hokora, a miniature shrine with a Faith theming bonus, is also meant to represent a key aspect of why swords play such an important role in Japanese culture: their smiths were normally also Shinto priests, with the making of a sword having mandatory rituals and sometimes forged as an offering to a Shinto shrine, even nowadays. This is the basis on how swords came to be treated as objects of art and worship in Japan. The Tatara won't provide immediate Faith that helps with founding, as it very hard to get two Great Works of the same type in time for that, and Japan doesn't exactly need to found in order to use their kit. Nonetheless, it has synergies with certain pantheons that may help indirectly; for instance, Tutelary Gods can generate 1 extra Faith in a city if you get to use the Tatara's extra Engineer slot.
Amendment 1
(8-24) 4UC Japan
Incompatible with:
(8-24a) 4UC Japan - Less katanas, more reworks
(8-24b) Japanese medley proposal
(8-24d) Japan: just Kondei + Torii, change nothing else
Spoiler Japan's current kit :
Capital.
Unhappiness from 
CS (from 22 Proposal
- UA receives the following adjustments:
- Loses the "+1
Culture and +1 Faith from Defensive Buildings." - Gains "Melee Land units start with the Eight Virtues of Bushido promotion", with the following adjustments:
- Each of the eight virtues lose the heal on kill.
- Valid unit types: Recon, Melee, Gunpowder, Mounted Melee, Armor.
- Can now also trigger the GWAM progress from Great Engineer birth, but the GWAM progress is lowered to 34%.
- Loses the "+1
Spoiler Japan's adjusted UA :
Spoiler Example of how a virtue will be :
- Dojo component replaced by the Tatara, a Forge replacement with the following additions:
- Provides 1 free Iron.
- +2 Culture and +1
Science as extra base yields. - +1 Culture and +1 Production from Engineers in the City.
- An extra Engineer slot.
- Unlocks access to 3 variations of Hokora (miniature Shinto shrine), a standalone building with the following characteristics:
- Cost: 10 Production.
- Each version comes with 2 slots of a different type of Great Work (Writing, Art/Artifact, Music).
- Each version is mutually exclusive with each other in the same city.
- Theming requires 2 Works of the same type and from your Civilization, any Era.
- +4
base theming bonus, and +4 Faith if Themed.
- Cost: 10
Spoiler Tatara's stats :
- Samurai gains the Dojo's yields from earning experience in combat as a new promotion ("Soul of the Samurai").
Spoiler Samurai's stats, with new promotion in bold :
- Kabuki and Yamato added as they are in the original (8-24) 4UC Japan proposal.
Spoiler Kabuki and Yamato from the original proposal, copied here for convenience :
RCS
Movement
GAP on ConstructionRationale
This proposal mainly tweaks the UA for an additional focus on Engineers, and replaces the Dojo for the Tatara, one of the oldest recorded structures in Japan and known for using ironsand as a viable source of iron. These changes take inspiration from the cultural importance of their blacksmiths, with some of the most skilled producing blades that are today considered national treasures, and inspiring myths and tales that remain relevant in Japan's popular imagination. This offers historical ground for these smiths (as Engineers) to act as a trigger for the
GWAM progress, and for a dedicated UB around them.These changes make Japan's early game more flexible and varied. An old complaint was that Japan is pigeonholed into Authority for its
Great General Faith purchase; adding Great Engineers means Tradition (which unlocks Engineer Faith purchase) has just as much merit. Similarly, the tweaked UA and the Tatara open synergies with more pantheons (God of Fire, Goddess of Beauty, Goddess of Wisdom, Tutelary Gods) than the current UA, which pigeonholes Japan towards Goddess of Protection.These changes also address an old complaint regarding
GWAM triggers in the early game, and during peacetime. Because Japan currently lacks unique military bonuses before Steel, the military GP trigger is often gated to Medieval Era, especially in higher difficulties. Having the "Eight Virtues of Bushido" in the UA means that going early for military GPs is more reasonable (and more friendly to AI Oda's Conqueror personality). And adding one economic GP workable in Ancient Era addresses both the early game and the peacetime issues, giving Japan something to work towards when not at war.The unlocked Hokora, a type of miniature Shinto shrine common in Japan, has 2 slots for
Great Works, with a variation for each type of slot: writing, art/artifact and music. This borrows from Venice's Piazza San Marco's mechanic, and is meant to address the possibility of Japan triggering the UA faster than they can unlock buildings with the needed slots for Great Works, regardless of type.On the martial side, most of the Dojo's abilities are redistributed to the UA and the Samurai. The "Wounded Units fight with additional strength" that was originally in the UA, many versions ago, had gone to the Dojo (with some tweaks, a.k.a. "Eight Virtues of Bushido") to open space for an experimental UA (Sakoku), which essentially gated Japan's kit to Steel. As explained before, moving it back to the UA means the
GWAM trigger is less gated by technology. And the Samurai gets the the yields from combat, so that the UU's current playstyle and feel are largely preserved. The rationale is that, in practice, the Samurai's playstyle comes mainly from the Dojo's abilities due to both unlocking at the same time. As such, it makes sense to transfer the Dojo's abilities to the UA and the Samurai, and let the (new) UB focus on something else.Notably, these changes should interact better with the new 4UC components. Because the Tatara asks for more reliance on specialists (including an extra Engineer slot), you have a strong incentive to run
Internal Food trade routes, which steers Japan towards the same isolationist theme that the Kabuki promotes. And having Art/Music theming before Industrial/Modern Era can power up the Kabuki's yields on GWAM birth. Meanwhile, the Yamato benefits from the extra Production that comes with a longtime focus on Engineers to cover her additional cost.The Tatara's free iron and the unlocked Hokora are based on historical elements, and aren't expected to help in Ancient Era. The Tatara was an unique type of furnace that existed since the 6th century and is remarked for being capable of producing iron from ironsand, an abundant resource in Japan that was largely untapped in the rest of the world; the West would first invent a method of doing so in the 18th century. It was efficient enough to play an important role in their economy, complementing the iron supply from the "mochi tetsu" (a native iron ore of similar quality to Swedish ores) and foreign imports. In game, the Tatara's free iron is expected to act roughly the same: not enough to dismiss iron tiles as a low priority, but complementing them enough that Japan's UUs aren't fully crippled by bad map RNG.
That the Tatara unlocks the Hokora, a miniature shrine with a
Faith theming bonus, is also meant to represent a key aspect of why swords play such an important role in Japanese culture: their smiths were normally also Shinto priests, with the making of a sword having mandatory rituals and sometimes forged as an offering to a Shinto shrine, even nowadays. This is the basis on how swords came to be treated as objects of art and worship in Japan. The Tatara won't provide immediate Faith that helps with founding, as it very hard to get two Great Works of the same type in time for that, and Japan doesn't exactly need to found in order to use their kit. Nonetheless, it has synergies with certain pantheons that may help indirectly; for instance, Tutelary Gods can generate 1 extra Faith in a city if you get to use the Tatara's extra Engineer slot.Amendment 1
- Proposal no longer changes the UA's name
- Tatara no longer has 2 slots for Great Works of Art/Artifact. Instead, it unlocks access to three variations of an inexpensive building (Hokora) that has 2 slots for a different type of Great Work each, and the same theming conditions and yields that the Tatara had.
- Rationale adjusted accordingly.
- UA grants the "Eight Virtues of Bushido" (without the heal on kill) to Melee Land units, instead of "Wounded Units fight with additional strength" to all units.
- Samurai gets only the yields from earning experience in combat as a new promotion.
- Rationale adjusted accordingly.
Last edited:
Torii, because it addresses the problem of early GW slots by adding a unique improvement instead. Have you considered swapping the 
Kabuki?
