8.3+ balance thread

[Pazyryk]

Just thought I'd start a new balance thread for 8.3+.

For a start, I've noticed that I've come to rely consistently on trade + Great Lighthouse for my commerce. I play Emperor difficulty and I've found that I can out-tech the AI once I build the GL in my capital. I'll even delay building a 3rd city (even a 2nd city when playing Mordmorgan) to get the GL early. It's an instant +20 commerce boost very early in the game (I'm assuming you have potential trade routes and God King) and much much more later (and much much much more if you have Trader trait or House Ghalanda). With the much reduced cost in Wildmana (200 hammers?) I find that my capital can usually build it in 10 or so turns (even without developed mines yet). I'm not quite saying that it is overpowered. I'm just saying that my gameplay has come to rely on this approach as opposed to other possibilities (aggressive expansion, cottage development, etc.) to the point where I don't even think twice about it. Here are some possible different re-balance suggestions. Don't do them all; just one would probably break my dependence on the GL:

1. raise cost back to where I have to think twice about it (200 -> 800 hammers?)
2. change it back to +1 trade in each coastal city rather than +4 in building city. The concentration of 4 trade routes in the capital with the early God King modifier (and other later modifiers) probably makes the current system more potent than the previous system (this is, of course, very dependent on map size/configuration and your play style).
3. (My preferred change) Make the AIs a whole lot more reluctant to agree to open borders. I'd like to see a whole lot less coziness between civs in general and especially between civs of opposing alignment and/or differing religions. (Annoyed and especially hostile civs shouldn't be offering open borders agreements.)

On a positive note, I'd like to note that the current FoL/Hidden Paths system seems well balanced to me (for a while now). Hidden Paths is no longer a no-brainer. I've had to think twice about Hidden Paths vs. Agrarianism in a few specific games. Also, Elves are no longer a guaranteed win for me at Emperor difficulty (Lanun are, though).

 

[skreeblios]

Speaking of the Lanun, I've been considering giving them a reskin for my own sake. The notion of a powerful pirate empire always seemed strange; though their overall flavor is very well done. Would there be any impact in terms of gameplay in adding a 'diverse' trait to a few of the Lanun leaders? Aside from the occasional dwarven worker, I haven't noticed any major advantage, and the hodgepodge that results fits the pirate theme well. Thoughts? Mostly I'm sick of salty sea dogs conducting deep inland raids.

 

[Till]

I think firebows need a nerf. They are cheap to build, don't require any resources, and can cast one of the best spells in the game right out of the gate, if you have any XP boosters at all.

By the time you control enough mana nodes to make building battle mages over them worth a thought, you already have won the game. Which is a shame because it ruins the flavour of the supposedly mage oriented civilization.

Not giving them Channeling II until level 4 or so would make building/beelining them less of a no brainer.

 

[wapamingo]

the same can be said about lurchip forge giving all golems built the fireball spell.

 

[Pazyryk]

Till, I'm not sure that I agree that firebows are overpowered. Well, maybe. But they are not more overpowered than many other units belonging to other civs (wapamingo gives a good example).

However, I do strongly agree that something seems quite wrong with the way Amurites play out in the game. I end up "hording" my potential promotions for adepts, not promoting them but instead waiting till after Govinnon, or after I've rearranged my mana nodes (to maximize promotions on upgrading), or after I have Arcane Lore and use spell books, and so on. So I end up using all my other units (swordmages, firebows, etc.) but never actually using an adept or mage. I suppose it's my own greed that makes me play this way. For example, instead of taking Fire I and Fire II and going out to throw some fireballs, I'll wait for Govinnon so I can get Fire I for free, then I'll wait to build extra Fire nodes to get Fire II on promotion (or from a spell book), and so on. It always feels like a sacrifice to get those mages out of the tower and into play. (So perhaps gimping some of those other special Amurite units would force me to get my mages into play? Maybe. I'm not sure if it is really a balance issue or just my own play patterns that I get stuck in.)

 

[Till]

Well, i would argue that the forge could use a nerf as well.
But at least the lurchip are designed around golems. They are meant to be their core units. I don't think that's the case with firebows and Amurites. If they absolutely need an overpowered unit, it should be the mages, in my opinion.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

not sure about firebows, but I would support not allowing wood golems to throw fireballs since, well, they are flammable after all

 

[Till]

I guess my problem is with the fireball spell in general. It gives you a free catapult which:

- requires no upkeep
- doesn't clog up the production queues of your cities
- requires no shuffling to the frontlines
- can kill stuff
- doesn't slow your army down
- can be used immediately after being cast and doesn't incapacitates the caster.

That's a lot of goodies. It's ok for mages, because getting mages requires a lot of time and effort, and mages are weak and useless for anything but casting.

Firebows (and those golems) on the other hand, are easily build, can hold their own against assassins, and are more than capable of attacking after casting.

 

[tesb]

Golems are rather weak then overpowered, since they can't get promotions. A champion with iron weapons is a strength 8 unit, while an iron golem is only strength 10. So basically the promotion combat 3 will make your champion stronger then the golem and attaining level 3 is not that difficult, especially with the training option enabled.

 

[Seven05]

I always wondered why Firebows didn't get flaming arrows instead.

 

[Calavente]

well, with barnaxus, your iron golem has a +50% modifier.
meaning the iron champ needs at least enchant blade + on top of combat III (needs to have +60% + 25% ; facing 50% = +35 % for the champ ; 8 *(100+35)% = 10.8, killing the golem).
but enchant is easy


Is there a way that other barnaxus promotions can go through the golems ? ex : shock II from barnaxus gives shock for all golems ? (B got to have 2promotion ; the golem got half of those 2 promotions + the golems can't upgrade to shock II as you need combat III that they never will get).
I mean, there should be some incentive to continue to risk Barnaxus into fights and some things to do to upgrade all those golems a bit.

On the balance side it seems to me that :
-the golem (+1/+2/+3 strength) advantage on raw standard unit is less and less a good bargain than it was in FFH. (CII/CIII +enchant blade is easy to come by : wood golem : 7str +50% vs 4+2str +25% for a iron enchanted axeman = 7str +25% vs 6 str : the axeman needs only combat II to be on the same level !! ; same demo for iron golem)
it is even easier in WM as there are training ranges : getting 10xp at birth or in a very few turns became very easy.
-on the melee line, the luirchips don't get anything for bronze working, smelting (well : forge), and iron working (no weapon promotions for warriors so even the weapon promotions are not usable) : it is a whole tech line that is almost void of interest for the Luirchips !!! Their only interest is the far away iron golem that, as we demonstrated is not so powerful; combat 3 + enchanted weapon being easy to get.
-Idem for bowing : you get something only for bowing + engineering instead of getting it at bowing (and it doesn't even have a ranged attack + is not so powerful compared to longbow + iron that can, on top of it get archery/drill/city defense promotions...

gargoil : 8str +50% vs 5/7 +2str + 1str(flaming arrow) for an iron weapon longbowman +enchant: so : 8str + 50% vs 8/10 : the longbow needs only CIII or drills promotions to be better than the gargoil in attack, and in defense, the longbow has a +25from hill +25 from city +25 from walls +ranged attack so on a hill city,
gargoil gets only 8str +50% vs 10defense +50% +ranged +defensive strikes for longbow)

Are they any ideas to strengthen a bit the luirchips ? not that they became weaker but because the mecanismes were tweaked (ex : champion separated from the iron weapon promotion but that one doesn't give anything to the luirchips) and some of those mechanismes gives strengths to all civs.... save for the luirchips.

some ideas :
-give more to the golems,
-or baranaxus can, at a given level (lvl10 to make it challenging or 101xp), bestow some "awaken promotion" on the golems or only on newly created golems, allowing the golems to get experience from combat...etc(maybe they start at level 4, meaning they need to gather 10xp before getting their first promotion)
-more promotions available to the golems through exisiting/new buildings, maybe with some buildings being exclusives from others, cities needing to specialize.
-some "affinity/ability" with some metals/mana/gems...etc for certain golems ... (enchantement mana should allow a bonus for golems : +1str or strong or...Etc ; maybe iron golem should have less strength but affinity for iron (it is much more difficult to get many irons than many mana nodes of a given kind ; I think such an affinity wouldn't be overpowered))

etc.
My 0.2

 

[tesb]

-some "affinity/ability" with some metals/mana/gems...etc for certain golems ... (enchantement mana should allow a bonus for golems : +1str or strong or...Etc ; maybe iron golem should have less strength but affinity for iron (it is much more difficult to get many irons than many mana nodes of a given kind ; I think such an affinity wouldn't be overpowered))

A affinity for certain resources is the best (and strangely the most easiest) way to go. I would reduce the strength of iron golems by 4 and give them iron affinity. the same could be done for mithril golems etc.

The problem would be if the ai would know to hoard iron/ mithril.

 

[DonQuigleone]

Equipment upgrades.

These are the Luchuirp right? They make all kinds of enchanted Gizmos. What if, by forking out some gold, you could give more special stuff to your Golems. For instance arm them with Guns (to get defensive golems), various types of enchanted swords, upgraded armor(good in different circumstances). This would give more reason to specialize the golems (through use of gold, rather then combat experience), perhaps create more attachment to individual golems and more. It would also make a nice synergy with the Runes of Kilmorph.

There could also be a unit which is an awakened golem(Children of Barnaxus?), which perhaps start out very weak but with some nurturing (experience and lots of equipment upgrades) could get very strong. Give a sort of elite core to the Luchuirp, while other golems are largely disposable.

 

[tesb]

@DonQuigleone: to an extend this is already implemented with the equipment option enabled. your adepts can buy stuff for your golems.

 

[DonQuigleone]

@DonQuigleone: to an extend this is already implemented with the equipment option enabled. your adepts can buy stuff for your golems.

True, but it could be take further. Basically make the Luchuirp more unique equipment oriented.

 

[Breez]

some ideas :
-give more to the golems,
-or baranaxus can, at a given level (lvl10 to make it challenging or 101xp), bestow some "awaken promotion" on the golems or only on newly created golems, allowing the golems to get experience from combat...etc(maybe they start at level 4, meaning they need to gather 10xp before getting their first promotion)
-more promotions available to the golems through exisiting/new buildings, maybe with some buildings being exclusives from others, cities needing to specialize.
-some "affinity/ability" with some metals/mana/gems...etc for certain golems ... (enchantement mana should allow a bonus for golems : +1str or strong or...Etc ; maybe iron golem should have less strength but affinity for iron (it is much more difficult to get many irons than many mana nodes of a given kind ; I think such an affinity wouldn't be overpowered))

etc.
My 0.2

I agree I hate playing that race. One of the things I love about this game is my units get better over time. I have this civ because MOST of their units do not have that ability (boring) and the ones that do are stuck as tier one units forever.

Opening up Some kind of exp gain for the Luchuirp would increase the fun factor for me.

Maybe the way to do it is no Golem can be higher level than Brananxus or they can not buy any promo he does not already have. Would remove the Ability he currently gives them 1st tho.

 

[DonQuigleone]

I agree I hate playing that race. One of the things I love about this game is my units get better over time. I have this civ because MOST of their units do not have that ability (boring) and the ones that do are stuck as tier one units forever.

Opening up Some kind of exp gain for the Luchuirp would increase the fun factor for me.

Maybe the way to do it is no Golem can be higher level than Brananxus or they can not buy any promo he does not already have. Would remove the Ability he currently gives them 1st tho.

Maybe Barnaxus can work as normal, but can also "teach" a limited assortment of promotions to golems, but only one at a time.

 

[Schwarzbart]

There is a problem in adopting Ethernal Court from Summer Court (Fey).
in Summercourt all Terain changes to Grassland / Forest what resoult in 2 / 1
but changin to Ethernal Court change the terain to never never/ Eternal Woods what only gives 1 and 4 .
So changing to Ethernal Court resoult in the lost of 1 food per land terain what I think is problematic (or even 2 if there was a Ancient Wood there because it also get overwriten by Eternal Wood).
For my own game I reduced the of both never never and Eternal Wood by 1 and added 1 to each.

 

[BasilAbdef]

1) The dragons (black, gold, and, white) come much too late in the game to be of much effect. Basically, if you can get to them, chances are you've won already regardless. They're mostly just there to say "Hah! Look what I have!"

2) The mithril golem is much, much too expensive (and has too many requirements) to justify its abilities. As a golem, it cannot take promotions; so for most players (unless the player is Luchuirp), it is stuck at 25 strength.

3) Chalid Atraskein is grossly overpowered. His combination of Pillar of Fire and Crown of Brilliance makes enemy stacks obsolete. They allow the player to bulldoze effortlessly any AI defense, especially since the AI likes concentrating everything in one stack. This doesn't even mention the fact that he has access to all Law and Sun spells and that he isn't even easy to pick off for marksmen units due to his ridiculous +2 affinity to sun mana. Something drastic needs to be done about this hero.

4) Somewhat related to above, the Crown of Brilliance spell is too good in comparison to other channeling three divine spells. I would strongly urge that its ability to recast automatically be removed at the very least.

5) The Order has the worst high priests. Everyone else, including the high priests of winter,gets some sort of AoE and/or strong summon at channeling three. The Order has access to a promotion that requires the caster win in combat and a spell requiring that the caster stay put in a city. The two perks oppose each other (cannot go on the warpath while stuck in a city), and the spell isn't even very useful either; its effects are negligible. In almost all late game situations, a few turns of anarchy in a newly acquired city and some subsequent upkeep costs are easily brushed aside. Also, the Command IV promotion requires that the difficult to replace high priest risk himself in combat. It isn't a particularly strong combat unit, and not even the strongest priest (Illians say hello)!

6) The Jotnar, as far as I am aware, still do not have a world spell. Their units also are not nearly good enough to justify the difficulty in acquiring and replacing them. This civ might be good enough to abuse the AI, but against a human, I just don't see them being viable.

 

[BasilAbdef]

well, with barnaxus, your iron golem has a +50% modifier.
meaning the iron champ needs at least enchant blade + on top of combat III (needs to have +60% + 25% ; facing 50% = +35 % for the champ ; 8 *(100+35)% = 10.8, killing the golem).
but enchant is easy

Your math is off. 10 * (1 + 0.5) = 8 * (1 + 0.875). That means an iron golem with Barnaxus at Combat V requires an iron champion with Combat III + enchanted blade (+85%) to nearly match (the golem still has the edge). Also, be aware that the golem cannot be crippled by things like the easily acquired Rust or Dispel spells, which would immediately tip things far, far in the golem's favor.