8.3+ balance thread

[[to_xp]Gekko]

dragons share that issue with Auric actually, i.e. if you can get them you've already won.

you can't nerf Chalid without overhauling the Empyrean entirely. Chalid is THE reason to go empy. I don't like that though, as it should be a religion focused on peace instead of warfare. I mean it wouldn't hurt to have ONE religion out of seven that's geared for peacetime.

 

[Fafnir13]

The fastest path to peace is to conquer everyone who disagrees with you.

On dragons:

The big problem is that the AI doesn't do what the conquering player does. IE: carve out a large chunk of the world for itself. If the end game saw your huge empire opposing another huge empire, then the dragons would be useful.
Now, what would really make them useful would be if they could get around the map faster. On the rare occasion that I do get one, it seems they can't keep up with my army. Maybe some additional move would be fitting.

 

[BasilAbdef]

dragons share that issue with Auric actually, i.e. if you can get them you've already won.

you can't nerf Chalid without overhauling the Empyrean entirely. Chalid is THE reason to go empy. I don't like that though, as it should be a religion focused on peace instead of warfare. I mean it wouldn't hurt to have ONE religion out of seven that's geared for peacetime.

Don't even get me started on the Illians and their silly (read: absolutely pointless) rituals. The only ones worth doing are the White Hand and Awake from Slumber, although the latter falls under the category of "too little, too late to matter". No sane player who is actually trying to win and not handicap him/herself would ever go for Ascension. The end result isn't even all that great either.

As for the Empyrean, what are you talking about? True, it does not have nearly as much flavor as something like the Ashen Veil, but it is very strong regardless. Their high priests are arguably the best (read my rant on Crown of Brilliance...), and their units certainly win out over garbage like fawns. Blinding light is rather imbalanced, so that's a big part of it. Chalid's abilities and strengths need to be split between two heroes; he has more than enough to spare.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I'm not saying empy needs a buff at all, I just think it should be vastly different. I mean I like it currently, Chalid is awesome. but for a religion that's supposed to be peaceful, it gives way too big a boon to combat imho... I'd like it a lot if it was changed to something that promotes a peaceful playstyle

 

[tesb]

you could make pillar of flame a castable spell by high priests of the empyrean, but only in cities where a temple of the empyrean is build. This would make the religion much more defensive and chalid would still have the crown.

 

[Calavente]

Your math is off. 10 * (1 + 0.5) = 8 * (1 + 0.875). That means an iron golem with Barnaxus at Combat V requires an iron champion with Combat III + enchanted blade (+85%) to nearly match (the golem still has the edge). Also, be aware that the golem cannot be crippled by things like the easily acquired Rust or Dispel spells, which would immediately tip things far, far in the golem's favor.

it seems I have my Math ok, but you have your cIV combat mechanisms off.
10 (1+0.5) vs 8 (1+0.85) is not 15 vs 15.5
but 10 vs 8(1.35) = whatever.

but you are right for the advantage vs rust and dispel.
at the same time, in WildMana, Rust is easily resistable !!

 

[DonQuigleone]

I think Apprenticeship is a bit underpowered now, it gives 2 XP for -10% military production. For one thing it's very easy for units to get 2XP now, as most units will receive about that much with the passive XP gain, making this somewhat obsolete, and it has a pretty big penalty too.

Furthermore Theocracy has a similiar issue, as it's XP bonus is also not the greatest, though it has other bonuses to compensate.

 

[Tarquelne]

For one thing it's very easy for units to get 2XP now

I agree. Though as two *additional* xp it can still be handy. OTOH, my main use for Ap. was always the two initial xp. I don't use it much anymore.

Maybe if it raised the passive training cap, or increased the passive training rate?

 

[Pickly]

However, I do strongly agree that something seems quite wrong with the way Amurites play out in the game. I end up "hording" my potential promotions for adepts, not promoting them but instead waiting till after Govinnon, or after I've rearranged my mana nodes (to maximize promotions on upgrading), or after I have Arcane Lore and use spell books, and so on. So I end up using all my other units (swordmages, firebows, etc.) but never actually using an adept or mage. I suppose it's my own greed that makes me play this way. For example, instead of taking Fire I and Fire II and going out to throw some fireballs, I'll wait for Govinnon so I can get Fire I for free, then I'll wait to build extra Fire nodes to get Fire II on promotion (or from a spell book), and so on. It always feels like a sacrifice to get those mages out of the tower and into play. (So perhaps gimping some of those other special Amurite units would force me to get my mages into play? Maybe. I'm not sure if it is really a balance issue or just my own play patterns that I get stuck in.)

I've noticed this as well when playing amurites.

Perhaps Govannon should get a Barnaxus type ability, where adepts automatically learn any spells he knows when built, rather than having Govannon have to travel to the adepts (or adepts to Govannon) and personally teach the spellls. This may also be useful for other units with channeling.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

that could actually be a nice idea to avoid micromanagement.

 

[Neomega]

5) The Order has the worst high priests. Everyone else, including the high priests of winter,gets some sort of AoE and/or strong summon at channeling three. The Order has access to a promotion that requires the caster win in combat and a spell requiring that the caster stay put in a city. The two perks oppose each other (cannot go on the warpath while stuck in a city), and the spell isn't even very useful either; its effects are negligible. In almost all late game situations, a few turns of anarchy in a newly acquired city and some subsequent upkeep costs are easily brushed aside. Also, the Command IV promotion requires that the difficult to replace high priest risk himself in combat.

You should probably think about why and how those command promotions are useful and should be used. I use preist's simple command I promotion all the time, it's the main reason I make priests.

 

[Fafnir13]

I think Apprenticeship is a bit underpowered now, it gives 2 XP for -10% military production. For one thing it's very easy for units to get 2XP now, as most units will receive about that much with the passive XP gain, making this somewhat obsolete, and it has a pretty big penalty too.

Only if you have the time to let troops sit around. It's most useful for early game rushes where every bonus is needed. Aggresive leaders especially benefit as they can pump shock troops straight to the front lines. I tend to switch to it right before I begin building a proper horde of units for conquest, then switch out once a more useful civic is available.
As far as early game civics, it's working fine. I wish more were like it.

 

[Neomega]

Only if you have the time to let troops sit around. It's most useful for early game rushes where every bonus is needed. Aggresive leaders especially benefit as they can pump shock troops straight to the front lines. I tend to switch to it right before I begin building a proper horde of units for conquest, then switch out once a more useful civic is available.
As far as early game civics, it's working fine. I wish more were like it.

when passive training is one, any civic that gives XP should also up chance to gain XP via training, IMHO.

 

[Neomega]

Did worldbreak get nerfed? I seem to remember it hitting all units and causing massive fires in forests... now it just hit inside cities.

 

[graywarden]

I just received an event offer from the Guild of Nine early in the game (turn 264) and im pretty sure it has not been built yet. Is this intended or should this occur after the guild is built? and if so should i receive this offer without having built the guild?

 

[Calavente]

I did not verify it on 8.3
playing 8.2.
desert + river + spring => floodplain : why not.
but should : deserthill + river + spring => floodplain hill ?

it may be design, but, IMO it's a bug, or at least an unbalanced effect.
(How would a "spring spell" allow for a periodic flooding of the area -remember it is hills!-, with heavy deposition of rich soils ?)
those hills become : +3 +1 +1 before any improvement. and while you can't build an irrigation you can build a mine or a cottage.
but really, the main issue is that it blocks you from going =>plain =>forest to oppose the unhealthiness of the floodplains

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

so, one thing pretty much everyone seemed to agree with where I've seen it mentioned is that import food shouldn't give double the food than export food takes away. I'd make them +2 , -3 , but I'd be happy with anything that doesn't make food magically appear out of thin air

another thing definitely worth mentioning that everyone agreed with is how many of the Illian rituals are not worth building at all, thus pretty much defeating what makes them unique in the first place. most of them could use a tweak really, like for example frostlings created by Shamain be friendly to the Illians, easily doable if they are wild mana ice type guardians I think. Mokka's cauldron should be an item Mokka starts with

Soul Forge should be relocatable like the palace is, that's another thing that's very rarely useful.

worst of all is definitely Ascension, DOW everyone for a single unit that can die any moment, AND lose half my population? as others have said, it sucks and is just for novelty value. negative effects need to be toned down a lot and/or Auric Ascended made more powerful.

the whole Godslayer mechanic is also aweful imho and needs to be redone. I still think the best way would be to make the Godslayer a reward from a dungeon, also it should change the graphics of the unit wielding it AND always show that unit even on a tile with superduperpowerful units in it. the Godslayer needs to be identifiable clearly by the Illian player so his absurdly hard to get juggernaut doesn't get killed out of the blue.

 

[russelcoight]

Just thought I'd start a new balance thread for 8.3+.

For a start, I've noticed that I've come to rely consistently on trade + Great Lighthouse for my commerce. I play Emperor difficulty and I've found that I can out-tech the AI once I build the GL in my capital. I'll even delay building a 3rd city (even a 2nd city when playing Mordmorgan) to get the GL early. It's an instant +20 commerce boost very early in the game (I'm assuming you have potential trade routes and God King) and much much more later (and much much much more if you have Trader trait or House Ghalanda). With the much reduced cost in Wildmana (200 hammers?) I find that my capital can usually build it in 10 or so turns (even without developed mines yet). I'm not quite saying that it is overpowered. I'm just saying that my gameplay has come to rely on this approach as opposed to other possibilities (aggressive expansion, cottage development, etc.) to the point where I don't even think twice about it. Here are some possible different re-balance suggestions. Don't do them all; just one would probably break my dependence on the GL:

1. raise cost back to where I have to think twice about it (200 -> 800 hammers?)
2. change it back to +1 trade in each coastal city rather than +4 in building city. The concentration of 4 trade routes in the capital with the early God King modifier (and other later modifiers) probably makes the current system more potent than the previous system (this is, of course, very dependent on map size/configuration and your play style).
3. (My preferred change) Make the AIs a whole lot more reluctant to agree to open borders. I'd like to see a whole lot less coziness between civs in general and especially between civs of opposing alignment and/or differing religions. (Annoyed and especially hostile civs shouldn't be offering open borders agreements.)

On a positive note, I'd like to note that the current FoL/Hidden Paths system seems well balanced to me (for a while now). Hidden Paths is no longer a no-brainer. I've had to think twice about Hidden Paths vs. Agrarianism in a few specific games. Also, Elves are no longer a guaranteed win for me at Emperor difficulty (Lanun are, though).

With regards to open borders , i can partially agree here. Ive found the ai often offer open borders then THE VERY NEXT TURN , declare war. Ive also noticed some civs don't seem to realize they are massively out numbered when they declare war.

Clan of embers is probably the number one culprit for this. Im not sure if its a feature , seeing as though barbarian like people would naturally go to war easily. However when they constantly offer open borders whilst doing this , its a little perplexing.



As for the great light house? i suppose it can be pretty powerful. I don't often have games where my captial is on the coast. But 4 trade routes with some of the bonuses and multipliers like god king do add up fast.