Host Notes: This proposal was originally made in Session #7 in this discussion thread. I decided to code it as a modmod (which you can download here or on the OP of the 4.11 release thread) so that the community could playtest the changes before voting on them.
As the work is essentially done and the unit supply system is largely independent of civilization balance, this is one of the two non-4UC votes for this session. You may make counterproposals to this proposal (as an exception to the general rule) provided they are lesser or roughly the same in scope as this proposal.
If this proposal passes and (8-16) 4UC France (or any other proposal which retains France's +25% supply from population bonus), the supply bonus will be lowered to +15%.
Original proposal text from @azum4roll:
Current supply cap formula:
Flat supply = (Total of all flat sources) / (1 + X * tech progress)
Supply from population = (City 1's supply from population% * City 1's population + City 2's supply from population% * City 2's population + ...) / (1 + Y * tech progress)
Supply from difficulty = Z - (number of era passed)
Supply from general/admiral = number of generals/admirals expended
Clarifications
- Puppet cities provide half as much supply from population (except for Venice, which gets the full amount)
- When starting later than the Ancient Era, base supply from difficulty is increased by (2 * # of eras after Ancient), which is equivalent to +1 per era due to tech penalty
Total supply cap = (Sum of the above) * (1 - penalty from War Weariness)
Currently, X = 5/6, Y = 7, Z = 10 in Settler, 7 in Emperor, 6 in Deity
There are issues on supply cap balance between tall and wide, as well as the problem of having too much supply in the lategame. This proposal plans to rectify them.
Proposal part 1: reduce supply numbers over the board
Other sources like Barracks are unchanged.
This reduces overall supply, still won't solve the above problems. Wide will continue to have more supply per city than tall, and lategame population still outgrows the tech penalty, despite exponential cost of growing.
Another variable is needed.
Part 2: add empire size penalty
Introducing the new Empire Size penalty: similar to Tech and Policy modifiers, you need +5% of supply per non-puppet city to reach the same supply count, just like how you need 5% more Science per non-puppet city to research a tech.
For example, if you have 4 cities, every 1.2 Flat Supply and Supply from Population will count as 1 Supply. Assuming NO researched tech and ignoring supply from difficulty/generals/admirals, a 20-city empire with 60 Flat Supply and 120 Supply from Population would have 180 / (1 + 5% * 20) = 90 supply cap.
This penalty stacks multiplicatively with the tech divisor. Which doesn't really violate the "all modifiers must stack additively" rule - all three of these are divisors, not modifiers!
The objective:
1. Tall should have higher supply per city than wide. This cannot be done with the current formula regardless of number changes (wide just has too much population per city right now), so an empire size penalty is needed.
2. Hopefully the lategame supply bloat can be addressed with the correct numbers. I expect no significant supply growth post-Industrial for the average player given the same amount of cities. Which is why I prefer keeping the tech divisor, since population still grows non-stop.
Possible questions:
Q1. Won't this make tall better than wide in warring?
A1. My aim is to make them equal assuming players evenly place their units at their borders, i.e. the supply cap to border length ratio (NOT land area; you don't need to defend the a city deep within your empire) is equal for both tall and wide. Neither should have the initial advantage, but the side with the better unit production should eventually have the upper hand, all other factors being equal.
Q2. How moddable is this?
A2. The empire size penalty per city will be yet another Defines value. Numbers can be tweaked however you want. Clarification: I implemented it as a column in the Worlds table (so it can be different on different map sizes, if desired).
As the work is essentially done and the unit supply system is largely independent of civilization balance, this is one of the two non-4UC votes for this session. You may make counterproposals to this proposal (as an exception to the general rule) provided they are lesser or roughly the same in scope as this proposal.
If this proposal passes and (8-16) 4UC France (or any other proposal which retains France's +25% supply from population bonus), the supply bonus will be lowered to +15%.
Original proposal text from @azum4roll:
Current supply cap formula:
Flat supply = (Total of all flat sources) / (1 + X * tech progress)
Supply from population = (City 1's supply from population% * City 1's population + City 2's supply from population% * City 2's population + ...) / (1 + Y * tech progress)
Supply from difficulty = Z - (number of era passed)
Supply from general/admiral = number of generals/admirals expended
Clarifications
- Puppet cities provide half as much supply from population (except for Venice, which gets the full amount)
- When starting later than the Ancient Era, base supply from difficulty is increased by (2 * # of eras after Ancient), which is equivalent to +1 per era due to tech penalty
Total supply cap = (Sum of the above) * (1 - penalty from War Weariness)
Currently, X = 5/6, Y = 7, Z = 10 in Settler, 7 in Emperor, 6 in Deity
There are issues on supply cap balance between tall and wide, as well as the problem of having too much supply in the lategame. This proposal plans to rectify them.
Proposal part 1: reduce supply numbers over the board
| Base VP | Tweaked | Why? | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Flat Supply Divisor | 1 + 83% * tech progress | 1 + 100% * tech progress | Keeping both divisors the same makes balancing easier. |
| Supply from Population Divisor | 1 + 700% * tech progress | 1 + 100% * tech progress | Keeping both divisors the same makes balancing easier. Also, the supply from population divisor is so high that all sources from that barely matter after the early game. |
| Difficulty Flat Supply Bonus | 10 (Settler) to 6 (Deity), AI and City-States have 8 | +2 to the current number | +1 supply in the capital to compensate the loss of supply per city. Additional +1 to compensate the empire size penalty for having a capital. |
| Difficulty-based Supply from Population | 35% (Settler) to 15% (Deity), AI and City-States have 25% | All 20% | AI already gets a food bonus. They naturally have higher population than human players and don't need a higher supply from population %. |
| Base Supply per City | +1 Supply | 0 Supply | You shouldn't be allowed to just plop down a new city and magically gain supply out of it. Build some infrastructure! |
| Lighthouse (+ Runestone) | +1 Supply | 0 Supply | The supply was given to support coastal cities. But it turns out nobody builds ships either way and it is used for land units instead. |
| Harbor | +2 Supply | +1 Supply | You may start to have a couple of Caravels and Galleasses, but never 2 per coastal city. |
| Seaport | 20% Supply from Population | 10% Supply from Population | With the tech divisor lowered to 100%, supply from population % should be heavily toned down. |
| Stable (+ Ducal Stable) | 10% Supply from Population | +1 Flat Supply | Production bonus for mounted melee obsoletes in the lategame. It's more thematically fitting to have a non-scaling supply bonus. |
| Walls, Castle, Bastion Fort, Arsenal, Military Base's Supply from Population (+ Walls of Babylon, Ostrog) | 10%/10%/10%/10%/20% | All 5% | With the tech divisor lowered to 100%, supply from population % should be heavily toned down. |
| Bastion Fort's New Change (+ Ostrog) | 0 Supply | +1 Flat Supply | The Navigation tech signals the age of sail. Corvettes and Frigates are both dominant combat ships and coastal cities need to have naval defense. |
| Parthenon | +10% Supply from local Population | 0% | Why should a random culture wonder give supply? |
| Royal Guardhouse (from Tradition Justice) | 20% Supply from local Population | +10% Supply from Population in all Cities | With the tech divisor lowered to 100%, supply from population % should be heavily toned down. This one's made global to encourage Tradition players to grow their other cities, not just their capital. |
| Dominance (from Authority) | +10% Supply from local Population | +5 Flat Supply | Early policy trees should have more immediate bonuses instead of scalers. |
| United Front (from Autocracy) | +50% Supply from Population in all Cities | +25% Supply from Population in all Cities | With the tech divisor lowered to 100%, supply from population % should be heavily toned down. |
| France UA | 25% from Population in all Cities | 15% from Population in all Cities | With the tech divisor lowered to 100%, supply from population % should be heavily toned down. |
Other sources like Barracks are unchanged.
This reduces overall supply, still won't solve the above problems. Wide will continue to have more supply per city than tall, and lategame population still outgrows the tech penalty, despite exponential cost of growing.
Another variable is needed.
Part 2: add empire size penalty
Introducing the new Empire Size penalty: similar to Tech and Policy modifiers, you need +5% of supply per non-puppet city to reach the same supply count, just like how you need 5% more Science per non-puppet city to research a tech.
For example, if you have 4 cities, every 1.2 Flat Supply and Supply from Population will count as 1 Supply. Assuming NO researched tech and ignoring supply from difficulty/generals/admirals, a 20-city empire with 60 Flat Supply and 120 Supply from Population would have 180 / (1 + 5% * 20) = 90 supply cap.
This penalty stacks multiplicatively with the tech divisor. Which doesn't really violate the "all modifiers must stack additively" rule - all three of these are divisors, not modifiers!
The objective:
1. Tall should have higher supply per city than wide. This cannot be done with the current formula regardless of number changes (wide just has too much population per city right now), so an empire size penalty is needed.
2. Hopefully the lategame supply bloat can be addressed with the correct numbers. I expect no significant supply growth post-Industrial for the average player given the same amount of cities. Which is why I prefer keeping the tech divisor, since population still grows non-stop.
Possible questions:
Q1. Won't this make tall better than wide in warring?
A1. My aim is to make them equal assuming players evenly place their units at their borders, i.e. the supply cap to border length ratio (NOT land area; you don't need to defend the a city deep within your empire) is equal for both tall and wide. Neither should have the initial advantage, but the side with the better unit production should eventually have the upper hand, all other factors being equal.
Q2. How moddable is this?
A2. The empire size penalty per city will be yet another Defines value. Numbers can be tweaked however you want. Clarification: I implemented it as a column in the Worlds table (so it can be different on different map sizes, if desired).
Last edited:
