[DLL] (8-NS) 4UC Carthage

[pineappledan]

This is a thread for discussing the addition of 2 more unique components to the Carthaginian civilization.

Unlike other threads, Carthage is due to go through a rework, so I cannot post a preview of the new base VP kit

Spoiler 4UC components as they appear in-game :

Spoiler Description of 4UC components :

UM - Suffet (replaces Great General and Great Admiral):
must be in a Friendly City to disembark back to a Suffet
Suffets Can embark anywhere to function as a Great Admiral, and disembark in Cities or canals to function as Great Generals
on Land:
"Leadership"
Can Construct Citadels
"Cannea and Drepana" - Units within 1 tile of a Suffet have plague immunity and ignore ZOC

on Water:
"Naval Leadership"
Can be expended to full heal all stacked and adjacent units
Can perform a Voyage of Discovery
"Cannea and Drepana" - Units within 1 tile of a Suffet have plague immunity and ignore ZOC

UB - Tophet (replaces Shrine):

Available at Agriculture​

65 Production cost​

+1 Culture, +2 Faith​

Gain Culture on Unit Purchases (Faith or Gold) equal to 15% of the Unit's Gold or Faith cost​

Proposed abilities differ from the abilities as they are implemented in the 4UC mod

 

[pineappledan]

Reserved

 

[Hinin]

With the new Carthaginian UA in place (Gains 100 Gold and 25 Science when highest ever quantity of a Luxury Resource increases, scaling with Era. Gains +5 XP to Gold purchased Units, scaling with Era.), the Tophet's main mechanic has been transfered to the UA, and the civ now more than ever gives a feeling of urgency : "I need to get these luxuries asap, before I have to barter or fight for them."

Thus, I want to propose an alternative to the Tophet : instead of a UB, the Carthaginians would have a unique line of settlers that would replace the original ones. These settlers wouldn't be using Production to be created, but would use Gold instead, with increasing costs for each City already settled (like base Settlers get more expensive to produce with each new City). They should also have other benefits that I've not thought about yet, but the "Gold instead of Production" part would really be the core of their identity.

For a civilization as Gold-focused and as frenzied for economic growth as Carthage, that would be both a good expression of the power fantasy I think the civ has represented through the years (early expansion fueling expansion), but also an interesting risk-reward element of their gameplay (you need Gold to invest in buildings or produce troops, and you have almost no economic bonus aside from the instand yields of the UA and a late classical UNW) : if you do things right, the civ could be extremely rewarding and fast-paced, but it would also be brittle and subject to unhappiness waves and collapses (plus the diplomatic penalties you'll get for settling everywhere). Gold would be your fuel and your lifeline for at least the first half of the game, since so many things required for keeping the pace with other civs after settling like crazy would require constant Gold influx. That idea of having a civ dependent on (and not merely aligned with) such a yield appeals to me quite a lot tbh, and thematically it also links Carthage to its origins as the "colony-producing colony" of the Phoenician world.

What do you think ? Also, what would you add to the unit line to spice it up (free buildings, tech requirement changes, free promotions etc) ?

 

[hokath]

Hmmm very interesting.

The ability to use the Unit_BuildOnFound table can even give them back instant lighthouses. The free harbor on the UNW (which is a bit weird -- how does one big harbor make harbors everywhere?) could be moved to the pioneer replacement, which could be earlier, perhaps even T1 Medieval?
You can also do things like giving the first unique settler the ability to embark without researching Fishing, letting you settle islands immediately (probably not the capital but the later ones) and even take some things from the Minoan mod civ like double movement on coast tiles. This way you can settle those far-flung colonies.
The pioneer and colonist replacements could even be given combat strength, so they clear their own barbarians when you send them off to those unsettled islands everyone wants.
For the final unit you could also consider yields from tile discovery.

 

[pineappledan]

It’s an interesting set of bones, but it Need some meat on it. A name, some art, etc.

 

[Hinin]

A name

Unfortunately, our knowledge of Phoenician and Etruscan vocabulary is very limited. We don't really know what the endonym was for the Great Cothon. It'll have to be some translitteration or a banal English name (with a Phoenician version left for the Alternative Component Names modmod).

some art

For the 3d model, it would quite easy to mix settler models (there are lots of them) and add some others (great merchant elements perhaps ?) to make it distinct visually.

For the icon and flag, that'll come, but I need some good base material, and my first goal was to see what people think of the general concept.

 

[pineappledan]

An alternative idea I had for the Tophet:

UB - Tophet (replaces Shrine):

Available at Agriculture​

65 Production cost​

+1 Culture, +2 Faith​

When a new citizen is born, all stored Food in the city is removed and given as Culture instead.
​

This would mean excess food over the growth cap and food carried over by buildings like granary and aqueduct would be liquidated and given as an instant sum of culture in the city.
This would add extra border growth, which is good because you want borders to expand quickly and gain tiles. It would also mean that Carthage has a very strong culture engine, but at the cost of their cities growing much slower than other civs.
Thematically, this would tie into Carthage's population always being relatively small, and augmented by North African confederates and client people. It would also tie into the Tophet itself by gamifying what this building is: an altar for child sacrifice. The civ would quite literally sacrifice growth for cultural and expansionist benefits.

This would add a new dimension to the civ, adding a tradeoff right from the beginning. It would need to be tested to see if a 1:1 conversion of food to culture is the right amount, if delaying growth that much is too painful in the mid-game, or if it needs to be supplemented by giving a more generous yield conversion, like / for each point of lost

 

[Hinin]

The truth of child sacrifice within Carthaginian society is still heavily debated nowadays though. Should something this uncertain and heavy really be put into gameplay ?

 

[azum4roll]

No other UB/UI in the game has a downside (other than the forced negative opinion on Homestead and Villa). I don't know why you can't turn this into a standard VP conversion.

"When a new Citizen is born, gain Culture equal to 5% of the required Food."

 

[Anarcomu]

No other UB/UI in the game has a downside

True, but we already have an UA with a downside (Venice). I think it's fine to have downsides from time to time.

 

[pineappledan]

The truth of child sacrifice within Carthaginian society is still heavily debated nowadays though. Should something this uncertain and heavy really be put into gameplay ?

Archaeological evidence seems to confirm the Greek and Roman written accounts. They have found what appears to have been Carthage’s Tophet, with jars of children’s remains showing signs of having been burned and then placed in jars.

Biblical scholarship also agrees with the Roman and Greek writers; child sacrifice is depicted several times in the Bible which was written by Hebrews, a collection of Canaanite tribes closely related to the Phoenicians. The story of Abraham and Isaac is an explicit rejection of child sacrifice as a means to set the people of Israel apart.

The Carthaginians were not exceptional in their practice of child sacrifice, the practice was widespread throughout the middle-east. The Carthaginians are only exceptional in that they held onto the practice far longer than other contemporary cultures, and seemed to have never renounced it until they were destroyed.

As to whether we ought to be depicting it, the Aztec UA is built around ritual sacrifice

 

[Hinin]

Archaeological evidence seems to confirm the Greek and Roman written accounts. They have found what appears to have been Carthage’s Tophet, with jars of children’s remains showing signs of having been burned and then placed in jars.

Biblical scholarship also aggressively with the Roman and Greek writers; child sacrifice is depicted several times in the Bible which was written by Hebrews, a collection of Canaanite tribes closely related to the Phoenicians. The story of Abraham and Isaac is an explicit rejection of child sacrifice as a means to set the people of Israel apart.

The Carthaginians were not exceptional in their practice of child sacrifice, the practice was widespread throughout the middle-east. The Carthaginians are only exceptional in that they held onto the practice far longer than other contemporary cultures, and seemed to have never renounced it until they were destroyed.

As to whether we ought to be depicting it, the Aztec UA is built around ritual sacrifice

The role of human sacrifice (and sacrifice in general) within Aztec religious and political history is well attested. In the case of the Carthaginians, there are still debates about wether child sacrifices were "frequent" or only a sort of last ditch effort meant to both reduce the number of mouths to feed and symbolize the ultimate form of sacrifice before one's own life before the gods, not even counting those who hypothesized that child ashes found within the Tophet could possibly have been those of stillborns or children who died young.

Perhaps I'm a bit squeamish, but to me child sacrifice isn't at the same level as more "mainstream" forms of human sacrifice à la Aztec, which are problematic in their own right. It is not far from the worst in term of what a society can do in the eyes of current sensibilities, and so I do think we need clear and certain proofs to be able to integrate this kind of element within a gameplay kit (which is not the same as what is currently within 4UC, which is just a picture and a civilopedia text).

Once again, it is not a way for me to "hide from the truth" (I know there have been scientific articles these last ten years adding weight to the idea that child sacrifices really happened in ancient Carthage). I just think it is such a controversial topic that we need really solid ground to dwell on it so strongly.

Well, what do you know.

 

[Stalker0]

An alternative idea I had for the Tophet:

UB - Tophet (replaces Shrine):

Available at Agriculture​

65 Production cost​

+1 Culture, +2 Faith​

When a new citizen is born, all stored Food in the city is removed and given as Culture instead.​

​

This would mean excess food over the growth cap and food carried over by buildings like granary and aqueduct would be liquidated and given as an instant sum of culture in the city.
This would add extra border growth, which is good because you want borders to expand quickly and gain tiles. It would also mean that Carthage has a very strong culture engine, but at the cost of their cities growing much slower than other civs.
Thematically, this would tie into Carthage's population always being relatively small, and augmented by North African confederates and client people. It would also tie into the Tophet itself by gamifying what this building is: an altar for child sacrifice. The civ would quite literally sacrifice growth for cultural and expansionist benefits.

This would add a new dimension to the civ, adding a tradeoff right from the beginning. It would need to be tested to see if a 1:1 conversion of food to culture is the right amount, if delaying growth that much is too painful in the mid-game, or if it needs to be supplemented by giving a more generous yield conversion, like / for each point of lost

1:1 is definately a no go for a building that is so early, its just too much culture. The concept is cool, but would have to be a 2:1 ratio at minimum, frankly probably a 3:1 ratio

 

[pineappledan]

That sounds like a massive detriment, because the value of the building rests entirely on the value of the exchange rate of 1 to 1

I’m pretty sure I would prefer 1 point of culture to 1 point of food in all stages of the game. I don’t think I would necessarily want 1 culture at the cost of 2 food in every case.

 

[rkkn]

1:1 is definately a no go for a building that is so early, its just too much culture. The concept is cool, but would have to be a 2:1 ratio at minimum, frankly probably a 3:1 ratio

well it's less culture than the current tophet
and requires more buildings. without a granary it's like 3 culture on birth
with a granary, growing from 4->5 is like 12 culture, which is a decent chunk, but still less than current. and has the downside of less food

 

[KlHannibal2]

An alternative idea I had for the Tophet:

UB - Tophet (replaces Shrine):

Available at Agriculture​

65 Production cost​

+1 Culture, +2 Faith​

When a new citizen is born, all stored Food in the city is removed and given as Culture instead.
​

This would mean excess food over the growth cap and food carried over by buildings like granary and aqueduct would be liquidated and given as an instant sum of culture in the city.
This would add extra border growth, which is good because you want borders to expand quickly and gain tiles. It would also mean that Carthage has a very strong culture engine, but at the cost of their cities growing much slower than other civs.
Thematically, this would tie into Carthage's population always being relatively small, and augmented by North African confederates and client people. It would also tie into the Tophet itself by gamifying what this building is: an altar for child sacrifice. The civ would quite literally sacrifice growth for cultural and expansionist benefits.

This would add a new dimension to the civ, adding a tradeoff right from the beginning. It would need to be tested to see if a 1:1 conversion of food to culture is the right amount, if delaying growth that much is too painful in the mid-game, or if it needs to be supplemented by giving a more generous yield conversion, like / for each point of lost

Cool idea. IMO, it would work better with the old UA with instant lighthouses. Those gave more food than you often needed. Without any extra food, the growth penalty could be crippling on a low-food start. Them again, Carthage can often get a sea luxury and god of the sea. It's worth testing it.

 

[KlHannibal2]

With the new Carthaginian UA in place (Gains 100 Gold and 25 Science when highest ever quantity of a Luxury Resource increases, scaling with Era. Gains +5 XP to Gold purchased Units, scaling with Era.), the Tophet's main mechanic has been transfered to the UA, and the civ now more than ever gives a feeling of urgency : "I need to get these luxuries asap, before I have to barter or fight for them."

Thus, I want to propose an alternative to the Tophet : instead of a UB, the Carthaginians would have a unique line of settlers that would replace the original ones. These settlers wouldn't be using Production to be created, but would use Gold instead, with increasing costs for each City already settled (like base Settlers get more expensive to produce with each new City). They should also have other benefits that I've not thought about yet, but the "Gold instead of Production" part would really be the core of their identity.

For a civilization as Gold-focused and as frenzied for economic growth as Carthage, that would be both a good expression of the power fantasy I think the civ has represented through the years (early expansion fueling expansion), but also an interesting risk-reward element of their gameplay (you need Gold to invest in buildings or produce troops, and you have almost no economic bonus aside from the instand yields of the UA and a late classical UNW) : if you do things right, the civ could be extremely rewarding and fast-paced, but it would also be brittle and subject to unhappiness waves and collapses (plus the diplomatic penalties you'll get for settling everywhere). Gold would be your fuel and your lifeline for at least the first half of the game, since so many things required for keeping the pace with other civs after settling like crazy would require constant Gold influx. That idea of having a civ dependent on (and not merely aligned with) such a yield appeals to me quite a lot tbh, and thematically it also links Carthage to its origins as the "colony-producing colony" of the Phoenician world.

What do you think ? Also, what would you add to the unit line to spice it up (free buildings, tech requirement changes, free promotions etc) ?

That sounds very interesting. Only concern I have is that power level would depend a lot on starting luxury and resulting amount of gold income early.

 

[Stalker0]

well it's less culture than the current tophet
and requires more buildings. without a granary it's like 3 culture on birth
with a granary, growing from 4->5 is like 12 culture, which is a decent chunk, but still less than current. and has the downside of less food

Don't really care about the building before, I care about it its balance now

 

[rkkn]

well I mean, if you think it's two powerful, you're still better off voting yea for it (or voting nay to 4UC itself). since it's weaker than the only currently fully fleshed out alternative

 

[rkkn]

At any rate, reducing the ratio on it makes it dramatically weaker. to the point where cutting it to 1:3 actually leaves it worse than the base building. Even 1:2 is arguable.