[DLL] (8-NS) 4UC Carthage

[Anarcomu]

When you have a granary and you get a new pop, 15% of the food required to grow the previous pop is added as food to your reserve.
Example : If it take 60 food to grow from 2 pop to 3 pop, with a granary you get a bonus 9 food when you grow from 2 to 3 pop, regardless of food production.

It is that specific food which is converted. It is agnostic to your food production. It will always be the same when any city with a granary will grow from 2 pop to 3 pop.

 

[pineappledan]

It would convert the spillover food on birth, so it is possible to delay your birth by a turn, and then switch every worker to food on the turn you will grow for a larger spillover. That’s possible, but unless that city has no infrastructure or has no FoodKept buildings then the spillover would be dwarfed. The “micro” you ought to be engaging in is building a granary.

Also because the entire thing deducts all the food and gives you culture in exchange, the value of the instant yield is solely the excess “exchange rate” difference between 1 point of food and 1 point of culture. That hardly seems worth breaking your neck to maximize by reassigning citizens off more productions tiles/specialists.

Edit: also we seem to be having a lot of arguments over a bonus that hasn’t even been proposed yet. If ya’ll are going to expend so much energy to debate this possible bonus you should propose it first. I can’t propose it myself because the OG proposal is mine and I can’t counterpropose myself.

 

[Rekk]

When you have a granary and you get a new pop, 15% of the food required to grow the previous pop is added as food to your reserve.
Example : If it take 60 food to grow from 2 pop to 3 pop, with a granary you get a bonus 9 food when you grow from 2 to 3 pop, regardless of food production.

It is that specific food which is converted. It is agnostic to your food production. It will always be the same when any city with a granary will grow from 2 pop to 3 pop.

How it is worded, it also converts any food you made over the cap.

When a new citizen is born, all stored Food in the city is removed and given as Culture instead.

This would mean excess food over the growth cap and food carried over by buildings like granary and aqueduct would be liquidated and given as an instant sum of culture in the city.

emphasis mine.

 

[randomnub]

Edit: also we seem to be having a lot of arguments over a bonus that hasn’t even been proposed yet. If ya’ll are going to expend so much energy to debate this possible bonus you should propose it first. I can’t propose it myself because the OG proposal is mine and I can’t counterpropose myself.

Better nip it in the bud.

 

[azum4roll]

FoodKept doesn't include the spillover food, which stays in the storage at a 100% rate.

 

[rkkn]

also we seem to be having a lot of arguments over a bonus that hasn’t even been proposed yet. If ya’ll are going to expend so much energy to debate this possible bonus you should propose it first. I can’t propose it myself because the OG proposal is mine and I can’t counterpropose myself.

it's because you could indeed propose it. by just changing the OP. The proposal is not set in stone yet

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Seems like I am in the minority in thinking that yields on purchase is actually an interesting bonus. It gives the civ a large incentive to focus on gold more than other civs, and buy rather than build units whenever possible when it's usually the reverse due to xp. It changes how you play, and that, to me, makes it interesting.

 

[azum4roll]

Seems like I am in the minority in thinking that yields on purchase is actually an interesting bonus. It gives the civ a large incentive to focus on gold more than other civs, and buy rather than build units whenever possible when it's usually the reverse due to xp. It changes how you play, and that, to me, makes it interesting.

You're rarely going to purchase a unit before building a Shrine, so this kind of bonus has a better fit on the UA. Just like Stele's +25% during Golden Ages.

 

[rkkn]

Sure, it could go on the UA, but the UA already does enough. It'd be more weird to have a supercharged UA and a super weak UB. I don't see putting it on the UB instead as any sort of negative. Certainly not anything significant enough to warrant ruling out an entire category of designs.

 

[hokath]

To differentiate a Monument or Shrine UB from just more UA text I think you have to do something to the early game pattern.
So Ethiopia has +2 Faith on the Monument, this let's you skip the Shrine. It's not super interesting but still it does feel different.
Here we will have a case where you want to spend your early gold all on units, and not buildings. Also you will buy them in the capital until Shrines are up in your other cities.
Both these things are not that far from how I play anyway -- maybe even less so than Ethiopia. What is more, Carthage's UA +xp boost already wants you to buy units.
So I'm not sold on the bonus warranting a Shrine replacement.

A theoretical example of something that would change your play would be:
unique shrine, +x yields from granary and forge in the city
This way you to want a certain build-path that is unusual or causes you to beeline certain techs that don't usually go together. A spread-out bonus.

Then the actual size of the bonus.
It's a lot of culture from the start.
I buy a warrior for 90 gold. I get 13 culture. It's pretty close to what Progress gives for researching a tech. In current 4UC it's 20 culture, even more.
This means Carthage can really storm through the early policies. Is that desirable?

 

[Stalker0]

To differentiate a Monument or Shrine UB from just more UA text I think you have to do something to the early game pattern.
So Ethiopia has +2 Faith on the Monument, this let's you skip the Shrine. It's not super interesting but still it does feel different.
Here we will have a case where you want to spend your early gold all on units, and not buildings. Also you will buy them in the capital until Shrines are up in your other cities.
Both these things are not that far from how I play anyway -- maybe even less so than Ethiopia. What is more, Carthage's UA +xp boost already wants you to buy units.
So I'm not sold on the bonus warranting a Shrine replacement.

A theoretical example of something that would change your play would be:
unique shrine, +x yields from granary and forge in the city
This way you to want a certain build-path that is unusual or causes you to beeline certain techs that don't usually go together. A spread-out bonus.

Then the actual size of the bonus.
It's a lot of culture from the start.
I buy a warrior for 90 gold. I get 13 culture. It's pretty close to what Progress gives for researching a tech. In current 4UC it's 20 culture, even more.
This means Carthage can really storm through the early policies. Is that desirable?

balance wise I do have my concerns. That said, personally I have often used carthage gold for infrastructure buildup, and this would definately change that play. it would be hard to justify using gold for building now with such a nice chunk of culture when I build a unit, and so aggressive carthage may become the go to.