A Babylon 5 Mod for the Final Frontier Mod

For the unit problem: from what I've figured, this is normal. The tech Interplanetary Missiles allows you to move them outside your borders.



I've been playing the mod for some time as Humans for quite a few games now.

In case this is still worked on, I thought I'd give some feedback.

Version 3.1.

1. The food bonus from Human Communities/food processor/whatever is slightly too high. It tends to cause huge growth, especially in larger empires and more developed planets. I suggest each value is dropped to 5% for each resource.

2. AI tends to be VERY reluctant to colonize in the games I've played. Colony ships seem to be too expensive? Also, I don't remember seeing the AI build any combat ship other than the defense satellite, even when tech approaches Vortex Generation.

3. Ship speeds are the same. It just doesn't feel right to have heavy ships moving all fine with scouts. Maybe buff lighter ships and nerf heavier ships slightly?

4. Building bonuses compared to the maintenance penalty seem quite weak. Do I really want that 5% extra production for 5% extra maintenance? Probably not. That being said, maintenance-decreasing buildings are too few.

5. Fighters and Bombers are weird pair. It ends up with fighters being planetary ships, while carrier limitations make bombers only choice for them. Bombers are equally strong in combat, but they're more expensive, have shorter range and have worse interception %s. I don't understand the reasoning of this.

That's all I can remember right now :p

Thanks for the feedback. The Mod is still alive....just in stasis... RL is keeping me away from home and my PC for extended periods so no real time to do anything about creating a new version. Should all change by the end of the year but that's still a long way off.
 
Hello.
I have some more feedback.

Today, I played several short, test-only games to pinpoint more problems. I found quite a few.


1. Some of the race-specific ground forces need the standard, non-race-specific version of enlistment centre.
They thus can't be hired. Tested on Drazi.


2. Planetary assault troops are useless.
They're like ground forces, except they can move in space. As a penalty, they have 2 extra support cost. They get no bonus whatsoever attacking systems.
Why would I need a weaker, more expensive unit that gets space travel as the only bonus? I don't.


3. Ground defense forces are useless after early game.
Their strength is 2. They get a bonus based on buildings, yes, but it doesn't really help when the system is being attacked by a 20-strength cruiser. Their only use is makeshift defense for new systems and planets soon to be attacked.

Solution to 2 and 3:
Give planetary assault troops a heavy bonus when attacking system, something like 500% or more. Up their starting strength to 3. Cut their costs to levels similar to ground defenders.

Additionally, make the following changes to defense units' configuration: Defend against planetary assault troops first. That's important part. Also, give them a bonus against these specific troops. 400-450% would do, as they'll be getting other bonuses anyways. Also up their strength to 3.

This will have two effects:

Firstly, ground forces fight eachother, which only makes sense.

Secondly, planetary assault troops can cause heavy damage compared to their cost when attacking a planet without ground defenders. This motivates usage of both unit types, as leaving your battle-planet without any ground troops would give cheap kills to the enemy attackers.

Additionally, 1 first strike could be given to both defense and offense units to make them even more of a danger to undefended capitals in systems.


4. Colony/Generation ships.
Whichever name you use, doesn't matter.

First off, there are a LOT of variants, each of them being identical. Even for the name part. Remove the ones that make the unit civilopedia feel like Department of Redudancy Department.

Second, they're seriously too expensive.
From quick game speed:
Ground forces: 6
Scout: 33
Construction Ship: 40
Frigate: 120
Generation Ship: 670

This does NOT encourage colonization at all. It's possible to build a single super-system that can work as well as 6 systems, without the maintenance costs, far more easily than it is to build a single colony ship.
Early game is supposed to be just that, colonization. Now it just turns into late game if-you-think-you've-got-the-resources thing. Simply put: Not worth it.

I'd recommend cutting the cost to 1/3 or 1/4 of the current.


5. I found the likely reason why AI isn't colonizing, apart from the colony ship cost.
And it's simple. Raiders.
They're slightly weaker in pure strength than starting recons, but they're faster. Okay, makes sense. They also have a natural first strike. Still makes sense. But the other parts make it just ridiculous.
It already has 1 first strike. Then, it starts with a promotion that gives it another one. Now, 2 first strikes might not sound much, but during the early game, when you have just your few ships, it is a lot. It's guaranteed damage to your ship, unless it has crazy high promotions, which it, more often than has, doesn't have.
Additional problem is the high spawn rate of the raiders. You need more ships than you can maintain, and if you don't use them well, more than you can build. AI isn't too capable in handling its ships, so it has little to no chances against the raider hordes.
And the final straw: Recons have a large attack penalty against basically everything. So, if you don't have any heavier ships in the area, you can only hope the raider attacks you so you don't have to attack it. And if it's in a system, it probably won't.

Solutions:
Remove the free promotions from the raider, it's already strong enough without them.
Remove or decrease the attack penalty on other recon ships from the recon ships. It gives them more value in a standard war, too, instead of being simply decoy ships.


6. On traits.
Looking at the leader/civilization traits, I found them woefully unbalanced.

Starting with the creative:
It gives 2 bonus culture. It's all cool in early game, until you get your very first building. Which takes about 20-30 turns. After that, whole trait is basically obsolete. It's possible to make way more culture with just buildings.

Moving to the Brakiri civilization trait:
It gives money. 2/city and 5% to all. Their only leader also has income boosts which total to 4/city and 5% to all. Now, that's really a nice bonus, especially if you have a large, undeveloped empire. Except that never really happens. Simply put, it's useful, but not nearly as useful as the other traits. I would recommend buffing the 5% to 10%, or if possible, adding a trade route bonus to it.

Next up is Spiritual:
It has many strengths. It gives as much health bonus as expansive and the largest happiness bonus, too, both being 2/city. That alone is a lot. But that's not all. It gives 10% bonus to experience required for promotions, which, coupled with the Narn innate bonus, for example, makes it 20%. So, now you can support more population and your ships gain experience faster? Awesome! But wait! There's more! 1 bonus to cash, science and culture seal this trait as completely OP. The ONLY drawback is that you get penalty of 1 espionage points per city, which doesn't even matter that much.

Comparing Spiritual and Creative would be like comparing pocket knife and swiss army machete. You get the idea.

The Centauri get a bonus in espionage, 2/city. Too bad ALL of their leaders have 2 traits that give give -1 penalty to espionage. No bonus spying for them.


7. On some of the ships.
Some races seem to have ships that can be produced without the appropriate ship-production building. Humans need a building to build a recon ship, but the Dilgar do not. Is this intentional? I hope not.



That's all this time.

This mod has a LOT of potential, but unfortunately, it's made unplayable by several mistakes, and errors in thinking.

I sincerely hope that progress starts again, soon, and the things I pointed out get fixed.
 
Hello.
I have some more feedback.

Today, I played several short, test-only games to pinpoint more problems. I found quite a few.


1. Some of the race-specific ground forces need the standard, non-race-specific version of enlistment centre.
They thus can't be hired. Tested on Drazi.


2. Planetary assault troops are useless.
They're like ground forces, except they can move in space. As a penalty, they have 2 extra support cost. They get no bonus whatsoever attacking systems.
Why would I need a weaker, more expensive unit that gets space travel as the only bonus? I don't.


3. Ground defense forces are useless after early game.
Their strength is 2. They get a bonus based on buildings, yes, but it doesn't really help when the system is being attacked by a 20-strength cruiser. Their only use is makeshift defense for new systems and planets soon to be attacked.

Solution to 2 and 3:
Give planetary assault troops a heavy bonus when attacking system, something like 500% or more. Up their starting strength to 3. Cut their costs to levels similar to ground defenders.

Additionally, make the following changes to defense units' configuration: Defend against planetary assault troops first. That's important part. Also, give them a bonus against these specific troops. 400-450% would do, as they'll be getting other bonuses anyways. Also up their strength to 3.

This will have two effects:

Firstly, ground forces fight eachother, which only makes sense.

Secondly, planetary assault troops can cause heavy damage compared to their cost when attacking a planet without ground defenders. This motivates usage of both unit types, as leaving your battle-planet without any ground troops would give cheap kills to the enemy attackers.

Additionally, 1 first strike could be given to both defense and offense units to make them even more of a danger to undefended capitals in systems.


4. Colony/Generation ships.
Whichever name you use, doesn't matter.

First off, there are a LOT of variants, each of them being identical. Even for the name part. Remove the ones that make the unit civilopedia feel like Department of Redudancy Department.

Second, they're seriously too expensive.
From quick game speed:
Ground forces: 6
Scout: 33
Construction Ship: 40
Frigate: 120
Generation Ship: 670

This does NOT encourage colonization at all. It's possible to build a single super-system that can work as well as 6 systems, without the maintenance costs, far more easily than it is to build a single colony ship.
Early game is supposed to be just that, colonization. Now it just turns into late game if-you-think-you've-got-the-resources thing. Simply put: Not worth it.

I'd recommend cutting the cost to 1/3 or 1/4 of the current.


5. I found the likely reason why AI isn't colonizing, apart from the colony ship cost.
And it's simple. Raiders.
They're slightly weaker in pure strength than starting recons, but they're faster. Okay, makes sense. They also have a natural first strike. Still makes sense. But the other parts make it just ridiculous.
It already has 1 first strike. Then, it starts with a promotion that gives it another one. Now, 2 first strikes might not sound much, but during the early game, when you have just your few ships, it is a lot. It's guaranteed damage to your ship, unless it has crazy high promotions, which it, more often than has, doesn't have.
Additional problem is the high spawn rate of the raiders. You need more ships than you can maintain, and if you don't use them well, more than you can build. AI isn't too capable in handling its ships, so it has little to no chances against the raider hordes.
And the final straw: Recons have a large attack penalty against basically everything. So, if you don't have any heavier ships in the area, you can only hope the raider attacks you so you don't have to attack it. And if it's in a system, it probably won't.

Solutions:
Remove the free promotions from the raider, it's already strong enough without them.
Remove or decrease the attack penalty on other recon ships from the recon ships. It gives them more value in a standard war, too, instead of being simply decoy ships.


6. On traits.
Looking at the leader/civilization traits, I found them woefully unbalanced.

Starting with the creative:
It gives 2 bonus culture. It's all cool in early game, until you get your very first building. Which takes about 20-30 turns. After that, whole trait is basically obsolete. It's possible to make way more culture with just buildings.

Moving to the Brakiri civilization trait:
It gives money. 2/city and 5% to all. Their only leader also has income boosts which total to 4/city and 5% to all. Now, that's really a nice bonus, especially if you have a large, undeveloped empire. Except that never really happens. Simply put, it's useful, but not nearly as useful as the other traits. I would recommend buffing the 5% to 10%, or if possible, adding a trade route bonus to it.

Next up is Spiritual:
It has many strengths. It gives as much health bonus as expansive and the largest happiness bonus, too, both being 2/city. That alone is a lot. But that's not all. It gives 10% bonus to experience required for promotions, which, coupled with the Narn innate bonus, for example, makes it 20%. So, now you can support more population and your ships gain experience faster? Awesome! But wait! There's more! 1 bonus to cash, science and culture seal this trait as completely OP. The ONLY drawback is that you get penalty of 1 espionage points per city, which doesn't even matter that much.

Comparing Spiritual and Creative would be like comparing pocket knife and swiss army machete. You get the idea.

The Centauri get a bonus in espionage, 2/city. Too bad ALL of their leaders have 2 traits that give give -1 penalty to espionage. No bonus spying for them.


7. On some of the ships.
Some races seem to have ships that can be produced without the appropriate ship-production building. Humans need a building to build a recon ship, but the Dilgar do not. Is this intentional? I hope not.



That's all this time.

This mod has a LOT of potential, but unfortunately, it's made unplayable by several mistakes, and errors in thinking.

I sincerely hope that progress starts again, soon, and the things I pointed out get fixed.

This feedback is the sort of stuff I've been waiting for. Because I know how the AI operates against a Player Civ and what the strengths of the Civs are I play to the strengths and don't see the issues you have noted above. This will give me something to address over the Christmas break.

Also, because it's just me I've been more focused on getting in all of the things I want than in play balance.

Many many thanks Madventurer and a Happy Christmas.
 
Happy New Year everyone.

4. Colony/Generation ships.
Whichever name you use, doesn't matter.

First off, there are a LOT of variants, each of them being identical. Even for the name part. Remove the ones that make the unit civilopedia feel like Department of Redudancy Department.

Second, they're seriously too expensive.
From quick game speed:
Ground forces: 6
Scout: 33
Construction Ship: 40
Frigate: 120
Generation Ship: 670

This does NOT encourage colonization at all. It's possible to build a single super-system that can work as well as 6 systems, without the maintenance costs, far more easily than it is to build a single colony ship.
Early game is supposed to be just that, colonization. Now it just turns into late game if-you-think-you've-got-the-resources thing. Simply put: Not worth it.

I'd recommend cutting the cost to 1/3 or 1/4 of the current.

I've reduced the cost of the colony ships to a 10th of what they were which has resulted in the AI building them, although on the turn I checked there was only one AI civ building one but it was an encouraging sign.

In addition to the issue above there were also problems with getting the AI to build a fleet. Having read another post on the FF+ forum this may well be down to the number of buildings the AI can build. This meant the AI was almost constantly building buildings instead of ships. To try and improve this situation I have halved the cost to produce a building which means they should be quicker at starting to build ships as they run out of buildings. I've also increased the iBuildUnitProb to 75, I am now testing how effective this has been at improving things.


5. I found the likely reason why AI isn't colonizing, apart from the colony ship cost.
And it's simple. Raiders.
They're slightly weaker in pure strength than starting recons, but they're faster. Okay, makes sense. They also have a natural first strike. Still makes sense. But the other parts make it just ridiculous.
It already has 1 first strike. Then, it starts with a promotion that gives it another one. Now, 2 first strikes might not sound much, but during the early game, when you have just your few ships, it is a lot. It's guaranteed damage to your ship, unless it has crazy high promotions, which it, more often than has, doesn't have.
Additional problem is the high spawn rate of the raiders. You need more ships than you can maintain, and if you don't use them well, more than you can build. AI isn't too capable in handling its ships, so it has little to no chances against the raider hordes.
And the final straw: Recons have a large attack penalty against basically everything. So, if you don't have any heavier ships in the area, you can only hope the raider attacks you so you don't have to attack it. And if it's in a system, it probably won't.

Solutions:
Remove the free promotions from the raider, it's already strong enough without them.
Remove or decrease the attack penalty on other recon ships from the recon ships. It gives them more value in a standard war, too, instead of being simply decoy ships.

For the moment rather than change many things I have opted to change only one thing which is to remove a free strike from the raiders. This has improved the chances of a scout surviving contact with two or more raiders. Also the raiders will only have the promotions given for free (unless it's survived an attack or two).
A player who has built a few of the buildings available prior to researching the ability to build new scout ships will have a few more promotions which shifts things in the players favour without guaranteeing victory.

The AI seems to have a preference for targeting the human (real not EA civ) player if there are multiple targets. The one advantage a real player has is that (I would hope) the real player has equipped his vessel with missiles. I've found launching two missiles at a raider camped on a wreckage does enough damage to give the scout a good chance of survival when attacking.

6. On traits.
Looking at the leader/civilization traits, I found them woefully unbalanced.

Starting with the creative:
It gives 2 bonus culture. It's all cool in early game, until you get your very first building. Which takes about 20-30 turns. After that, whole trait is basically obsolete. It's possible to make way more culture with just buildings.

Moving to the Brakiri civilization trait:
It gives money. 2/city and 5% to all. Their only leader also has income boosts which total to 4/city and 5% to all. Now, that's really a nice bonus, especially if you have a large, undeveloped empire. Except that never really happens. Simply put, it's useful, but not nearly as useful as the other traits. I would recommend buffing the 5% to 10%, or if possible, adding a trade route bonus to it.

Next up is Spiritual:
It has many strengths. It gives as much health bonus as expansive and the largest happiness bonus, too, both being 2/city. That alone is a lot. But that's not all. It gives 10% bonus to experience required for promotions, which, coupled with the Narn innate bonus, for example, makes it 20%. So, now you can support more population and your ships gain experience faster? Awesome! But wait! There's more! 1 bonus to cash, science and culture seal this trait as completely OP. The ONLY drawback is that you get penalty of 1 espionage points per city, which doesn't even matter that much.

Comparing Spiritual and Creative would be like comparing pocket knife and swiss army machete. You get the idea.

The Centauri get a bonus in espionage, 2/city. Too bad ALL of their leaders have 2 traits that give give -1 penalty to espionage. No bonus spying for them.

I haven't started tackling the traits yet but have given them some thought. Currently each race has a faction specific trait and two others which I think has not helped. I will probably overhaul this and reduce it to the faction specific trait and one other. With a lot more thought put into balancing them, more suggestions would be useful.

For example my thoughts for the Minbari leaders would be as follows.

Dukhat - Faction Trait + Spiritual Trait
Delenn - Faction Trait + Protective Trait
Neroon - Faction Trait + Aggressive Trait

For the Narn

G'Kar - Faction Trait + Aggressive Trait
Citizen G'Kar - Faction Trait + Spiritual Trait
N'Far - Faction Trait + Protective Trait

As I said, these are just ideas for now as I need to sit down and work through all of the traits checking their positives/negatives for balance.

I'll be looking at the other stuff as and when I get the time but thanks again for the feedback.
 
I've now finished working out some of the small issues the units had.

Some of them had the wrong prereq techs so they were becoming available either before or after other civs had the unit.

Unit costs have been lowered by a minimum of 50%. The Minbari units, for some reason, had disproportionately high unit costs. They have now been corrected to the same as other units cost.

After making the changes to the unit costs and the previously posted building costs I played a quick game. With raging barbs on it was a struggle to keep defensive units alive long enough for them to make a difference. However, because of the changes made it is possible to now build 2 or 3 units in one turn even early in the game. It may sometimes cost you credits to rush a unit but it's worth it.

So, with the changes made so far and playing with a normal barb level there should be no problem with the AI having enough credits and/or production to generate a sizeable fleet to go to war with.

I'm going to take a look at the Traits next and see what can be done with them to address the issues raised by Madventurer.

I forgot about the items below.

1. Some of the race-specific ground forces need the standard, non-race-specific version of enlistment centre.
They thus can't be hired. Tested on Drazi.


2. Planetary assault troops are useless.
They're like ground forces, except they can move in space. As a penalty, they have 2 extra support cost. They get no bonus whatsoever attacking systems.
Why would I need a weaker, more expensive unit that gets space travel as the only bonus? I don't.


3. Ground defense forces are useless after early game.
Their strength is 2. They get a bonus based on buildings, yes, but it doesn't really help when the system is being attacked by a 20-strength cruiser. Their only use is makeshift defense for new systems and planets soon to be attacked.

Solution to 2 and 3:
Give planetary assault troops a heavy bonus when attacking system, something like 500% or more. Up their starting strength to 3. Cut their costs to levels similar to ground defenders.

Additionally, make the following changes to defense units' configuration: Defend against planetary assault troops first. That's important part. Also, give them a bonus against these specific troops. 400-450% would do, as they'll be getting other bonuses anyways. Also up their strength to 3.

This will have two effects:

Firstly, ground forces fight eachother, which only makes sense.

Secondly, planetary assault troops can cause heavy damage compared to their cost when attacking a planet without ground defenders. This motivates usage of both unit types, as leaving your battle-planet without any ground troops would give cheap kills to the enemy attackers.

Additionally, 1 first strike could be given to both defense and offense units to make them even more of a danger to undefended capitals in systems.

I may decide to do away with the planetside combat units as the AI doesn't seem to build them preferring to use the O.D.S. units instead. I'll make a decision on this once I've tackled the traits.
 
I have some good news at last, all the fiddling around has resulted in the AI now colonizing other worlds. Not just the ones their scouts find and incorporate into their empires, they really are building Generation/Sleeper ships and sending them out.

With this now working correctly I need to look at the credits/gold situation. Until the advent of the spaceport/docking station there is enough money to keep your research at 100% and still build an empire. Once the spaceport and docking stations start to get built there's too much money.

If I can get this sorted out then I will release the latest version of the Mod for download.
 
Hello everyone,

I've been away for quite some time... again... but hopefully this time I'll stick around longer :lol:.

Anyway, just to say hello... and to give a little teaser...







I'll post the details later.

Regards,
:salute:
 
Glad to see you back!
Awesome ships, as always :)
 
Hello once again!

This time I have no testing, but I've just returned after couple months of doing other things, and I'm eagerly waiting to test the new version!

That's all I have this time.

Regards,
Mad
 
Hello everyone,

I've been away for quite some time... again... but hopefully this time I'll stick around longer :lol:.

Anyway, just to say hello... and to give a little teaser...







I'll post the details later.

Regards,
:salute:

Welcome back Premier, and with some lovely new ships by the looks of it.

Glad to see you back!
Awesome ships, as always :)

Seconded!

Hello once again!

This time I have no testing, but I've just returned after couple months of doing other things, and I'm eagerly waiting to test the new version!

That's all I have this time.

Regards,
Mad

Good news for you Mad, and all other players of this Mod, I'm really pleased with what I've managed to get done so far, with Premiers new ships to add in there should be plenty of new and varied things for players to experience. Should I spoil the surprises or keep quiet and just let you experience it all with no warning...decisions decisions.
Silence... for now. :evil:
 
I just tried to download this mod but get an error when I try to uncompress it one of the Drazi ship nifs is broken. Unfortunately it stopped/hung 7zip and I could not see which one.
 
I just tried to download this mod but get an error when I try to uncompress it one of the Drazi ship nifs is broken. Unfortunately it stopped/hung 7zip and I could not see which one.

Thanks DH, I'll take a look at my current versions Drazi ships and make sure they are all working correctly before I do anything else.
 
To be honest I have been trying to remember the name of the maintenance ship they used in Babylon 5 and though you might have it in game. It is basically a one person box with maneuvering jets but is more versatile than a fork lift.
 
Here i got some screenshots of the bug i wrote:
Just after game starts
Inside Sol system
Exiting Sol system
Got the same bug with other races
Please help me with this bug, cause it's unable to play with it :(
I'm using Windows Vista x64,
3.19 Beyond the Sword

I have no such bug when i'm playing FFP 1.83

I'm having the same problem as this fella reported, any help would be appreciated.
 
Have you tried the solutions suggested by GodEmperor in the posts beneath the one you quoted by nomercy81?

Yes I have. I've changed the customassets, checked the mod is in the correct mod folder and confirmed the correct pyhton files from the final frontier are present.
 
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