A Better AI.

[kettyo]

Kettyo: In your game, if you are not carefull, Asoka prob wins a cultural victory hehe. But if Brennus attack him, he gets owned and is no longer a problem, I suppose you must try it(I did). And I dont know if you know, but Isabella will declare war on you I think! I played like 10 turns, and she demanded something, I refused and she changed for vassalage heh
I suggest start to buy military and also convince Brennus to atack Asoka if you want ot win! And attack togheter, you can get some nice cities from him Just keep your cities defended because Isabella WILL attack heh..

I'm also planning to invade Isabella so i don't care that much
I recently got Astronomy and shall build a galleon fleet.
First i plan to convert Capac then if he's attacked by the other hindus i'll support him. 1 galleon is enough for this because of the 3 missionary limit.
Still don't know with what kind of tactics but i will invade Isabella with my other galleons and invasion force i soon start to build.
It promises to be interesting. It's even better if she expects me
I'm not a free-turn looter i want to crush her head to head.
Asoka's cities are still far from 50.000 culture so i don't care that either. I won't attack him i trade techs with him and we are fine together.
Although i won't help him if Brennus attacked
I definitely won't accept any kind of vassalage of him. I may need to burn his overcultured cities later in the endgame

Interesting setup anyways.
I just find it illogic for Brennus to not attack Asoka in this situation.

 

[kettyo]

Since when you will see a Treb in real life kick the butts of some tanks, infantaries and Marines? And dont forget the cavalry!! >.<

This always was this way in Civ and i like it.
The backwards civs still must have some chance. (the spearman vs. tank theme)
You see if you had only half the units of their stack then you had slaughtered them (from outside the city)
It's nothing to do with reality it's a boardgame.
And even if you look the reality the most backward nation today is able to cause harm to the most advanced anyway. Don't forget the Russian defeat in Cecenja few years ago or the American defeat in Somalia.

And yes, Trebs are too overpowered! Man, thgey can kick butts so badly, a medieval defensive force even if equal in number didnt have much of a chance out there!

A strenght 8 maceman eats the str 4 treb for breakfast.
The horse archer also gets bonus against them.
Just make sure you won't sit in a city when the trebs come to visit you.
Tactics are important and that's COOOOL !

 

[DevilJin]

For the people who think that the trebuchet is overpowered: The strengh of the trebuchet when attacking a city is 8, like a maceman. So you call a maceman overpowered too?

 

[Arlborn]

For the people who think that the trebuchet is overpowered: The strengh of the trebuchet when attacking a city is 8, like a maceman. So you call a maceman overpowered too?

The Collateral damage thing is overpowered IMHO. You say its the same strengh of a Maceman, OK. Lets see, 10 Trebs attacking 10 Macemen inside a city, who wins? That is what I meant hehe. Man 22 trebs attacked me, they did all the collateral dmg that they could.

 

[Iustus]

This is the save i talked about.
Look how much troops Brennus has in the capital Bibracte and also has quite some in Vienne.
Asoka's army is very weak (though in technonogy he is more advanced than Brennus).
They are annoyed to each other.
I think Brennus should attack at once but he doesn't.
In the long run it will be just worse for him.

I would cerainly start an immediate move on Madras in his place.

I have not looked at your save yet (I will), but I just tracked down a bug that caused an AI to not declare war when it wanted to do so. I suspect he has his main stack on a plot that is next to the city he wants to attack (that is a friendly culture owns a plot right next to the city). This is the case i have found where it wants to attack, but fails to do so.

As an aside, the declare war code is really convoluted. Would you believe that AIs only declare war (other than diplomacy) when a unit which is moving wants to move somewhere where it cannot move, and by declaring war, they can move there? (Yes, there are other criteria, but that one has to be satisfied first, then it decides if it makes sense to declare war).

-Iustus

 

[Arlborn]

I have not looked at your save yet (I will), but I just tracked down a bug that caused an AI to not declare war when it wanted to do so. I suspect he has his main stack on a plot that is next to the city he wants to attack (that is a friendly culture owns a plot right next to the city). This is the case i have found where it wants to attack, but fails to do so.

As an aside, the declare war code is really convoluted. Would you believe that AIs only declare war (other than diplomacy) when a unit which is moving wants to move somewhere where it cannot move, and by declaring war, they can move there? (Yes, there are other criteria, but that one has to be satisfied first, then it decides if it makes sense to declare war).

-Iustus

You mean that bug is in Vanilla?? LOL

 

[Powerslave]

A strenght 8 maceman eats the str 4 treb for breakfast. The horse archer also gets bonus against them. Just make sure you won't sit in a city when the trebs come to visit you. Tactics are important and that's COOOOL !

Kettyo makes some great points. I agree, it's scary to see the AI actually using tactics now, and it's frustrating to see a backwards civ win out over your more modern army. But this is also a good thing, because we'll have much more challenge during war, rather than just walking all over the AI.

There are some useful defenses against collateral damage:

1) Build walls and castles (only applicable until obsolete)
2) Give your units drill (a GREAT reason to make machine gunners)
3) Build horse archers and cavalry, then hunt down the catapults, trebuchet, and cannons
4) Attack the siege units before they attack you. City Raider and extra collateral damage don't help at all when they're defending!

What I do when I see many siege engines bearing down on me is have my city garrison go on the offensive. In some cases, it's much worse to sit there and take their attack than it is to have wounded defenders.

I'm glad the AI is using siege engines (properly!) more often now. I had been surprised in the past with more than a few cannons showing up on my doorstep, but two dozen trebuchet is amazing.

Good work, Blake!

 

[kettyo]

The Collateral damage thing is overpowered IMHO. You say its the same strengh of a Maceman, OK. Lets see, 10 Trebs attacking 10 Macemen inside a city, who wins? That is what I meant hehe. Man 22 trebs attacked me, they did all the collateral dmg that they could.

This is the point.
Don't fight them in the city!

10 macemen will crush the 10 trebs in EVERY OCCASION but when defending in a city.

STRATEGY game. Got it?

I'm sure you understand just teasing us.

PS: Try something like Panzer General
There your precious Panther unit could be easily killed by a crappy partisan if you attack them in a well-fortified village etc.
Civ has much less tactical elements then these games but some fortunately has

 

[kettyo]

I just tracked down a bug that caused an AI to not declare war when it wanted to do so. I suspect he has his main stack on a plot that is next to the city he wants to attack (that is a friendly culture owns a plot right next to the city).

It's not the case here but congrats on finding the bug anyway

As an aside, the declare war code is really convoluted. Would you believe that AIs only declare war (other than diplomacy) when a unit which is moving wants to move somewhere where it cannot move, and by declaring war, they can move there? (Yes, there are other criteria, but that one has to be satisfied first, then it decides if it makes sense to declare war)

Seems VERY silly.
Couldn't it be reprogrammed to check all opponents in all turns to evaluate a war declaration?
It would seem much more reasonable and i don't think it would slow AI turns noticeably.
This makes clear why AI's tend to not declare war on overseas civs by their own and why they not attack while open borders are in effect.
(but would be good to change this)

 

[kettyo]

What I do when I see many siege engines bearing down on me is have my city garrison go on the offensive. In some cases, it's much worse to sit there and take their attack than it is to have wounded defenders.

Well pointed out.
Or if you mostly have defensive type units then scatter them out as much as possible to preferably defensive (forest/hill/fort) open terrain.

 

[Arlborn]

This is the point.
Don't fight them in the city!

10 macemen will crush the 10 trebs in EVERY OCCASION but when defending in a city.

STRATEGY game. Got it?

I'm sure you understand just teasing us.

PS: Try something like Panzer General
There your precious Panther unit could be easily killed by a crappy partisan if you attack them in a well-fortified village etc.
Civ has much less tactical elements then these games but some fortunately has

First off, Im not complaining, it was a big shock, but was really funny also.

Second I didnt see that there was 22 trebuches there because I came from the SEA inside the city and THEN I saw the stack of doom just there, waiting.

And third, if there was a decent group of defenders defending the Trebs(there wasent in this case, but I didnt see the stack anyway) then you are cracked anyway even if you attack the stack before they attack you..


Ps: I built a nice group of Marines+artillaries and got the city back by sea where they couldent attack me<sigh>..

 

[kettyo]

if there was a decent group of defenders defending the Trebs(there wasent in this case, but I didnt see the stack anyway) then you are cracked anyway even if you attack the stack before they attack you..

Sure.
In this case you have to scatter out.

Or retreat to another city and muster a stack there to counter them (not in this case when you're invading but in general)

 

[Wodan]

Iustus & Blake, here's another minor issue. Boats on automation have some odd prioritization for establishing fishing nets. Even in the same city. They sometimes pick a crab over a fish (losing 1 food) even when I already have crabs (did I just say that?!?) and sometimes an ocean fish over a coastal fish (losing 1 commerce).

Wodan

 

[kettyo]

Arlborn and Iustus,

At last in 1700 Brennus attacked Asoka after in 1635 Saladin also did that.

Saladin burned Asoka's colony in the hindu continent the following turn
Now they both are at war with him.

The main Celt stack left Bibracte and went on Bangalore.
They will probably fail because they only have 1 catapult.
They are in large numbers but much old units.

I may attack Saladin if Asoka requests but no chance to bribe me against Brennus. Also i won't attack Asoka if requested.
I'd like to see what they can perform before me

The galleon fleet and a lot of grenadiers/cannons are under production to test them out on Isabella or Saladin

The only question is why Brennus waited for that long?
Maybe because of the 'must wander somebody to their lands' war declaration restriction described by Iustus previously?
I think yes.
Saladin is very far away in another continent so won't affect much in the Brennus-Asoka war.
And previously Asoka didn't lead before Brennus in military technology that much.

Here is the save:

 

[Arlborn]

Arlborn,

At last in 1700 Brennus attacked Asoka after in 1635 Saladin also did that.(Saladin burned Asoka's colony in the hindu continent the following turn )

Now they both are at war with him.

The main stack left Bibracte and went on Bangalore.
They will probably fail because they only have 1 catapult.
They are in large numbers but much old units.

I may attack Saladin if Asoka requests but no chance to bribe me against Brennus. Also i won't attack Asoka if requested.
I'd like to see what they can perform to me

The galleon fleet and a lot of grenadiers/cannons are under production to test them out on Isabella or Saladin

The only question is why Brennus waited for that long?
Maybe because of the 'must wander somebody to their lands' war declaration restriction described by Iustus previously?
I think yes.
Saladin is very far away in another continent so won't affect much in the Brennus-Asoka war.
And previously Asoka didn't lead before Brennus in military technology that much.

Here is the save:

Its eraly in the game, attack Isabella! Better to dominate the surroundies of your territory early and iin late game it will give you muchy more production-science powerhouse cities! And later in the game you have transporter and Marines you know

And also because Isabella may attack you when you are attacking Saladin and loseing a lot in units costs..

 

[Iustus]

You mean that bug is in Vanilla?? LOL

Yes, technically, but not practically.

The reason you dont really come across it in vanilla is that the AI usually sends all these tiny 'attack' stacks first, and the big 'city attack' stack comes later.

Well the 'attack' stacks are not headed anywhere important, so they will just try to cross the border anywhere and start the war.

With BetterAI, it now does not declare war until a 'city attack' stack arrives. This is what revealed this bug. Previously, war would get declared soon enough, and the big stack would get unstuck.

Sea combat has not been addressed at all, so it is currently still bad. This includes how sea invasions are scheduled.

-Iustus

 

[Harrier]

Playing with Blakes 22/11 version. Noble, Marathon.

Straight off went for research: Mysticism - Polytheism.

Previously always worked - I founded the Religion (even at the few Prince games I played).

In 3580BC got the info that 'Buddhism is founded' -great I thought {right choice again} except a millisecond later - Shock Horror.

3580BC 'Hinduism founded'. Same turn!!!

Damm you Blake what have you done.

Looking at the research tree, even if I had started with Mysticism, I would not have completed research of Polytheism. But I would have just completed Meditation in time. Previously I would have lost out on Meditation about 70+% (my guesstimate) of the time.

So now you have to consider your Civ/Leader and start location if you want to found an early religion.

I am sure before there was a heavy bias to the AI to found Buddhism. Thats why I always beelined for the alternative.

So good job again Blake - another human exploit squashed.

In future, I will go straight for Bronze Working at the start and only consider religious techs afterwards - i.e. Priesthood to get a temple and Priest (for GPPs).

 

[kettyo]

Its eraly in the game, attack Isabella! Better to dominate the surroundies of your territory early and iin late game it will give you muchy more production-science powerhouse cities! And later in the game you have transporter and Marines you know

And also because Isabella may attack you when you are attacking Saladin and loseing a lot in units costs..

Brennus took Bangalore and Madras with some Arabian help
It's cool he built a half dozen catapults for the job.
Then as Asoka got riflemen plus drafting immediately made peace with him.
Clever.

Monty pulled ahead a long way in power and i'm their worst enemy so i made a defensive pact with Capac.
So if it works i may try to win a peaceful game here.
I don't think i could win against Monty in the battlefield.
I miss overseas war declarations a little but at least now we know from Iustus why is it this way.

 

[pholkhero]

I am sure before there was a heavy bias to the AI to found Buddhism. Thats why I always beelined for the alternative.

I believe, in its latest incarnation, Blake's Penultimate Patch, it's almost a toss-up re: which religion the AI will chose to pursue ~ anything that cuts out that "One Right Way" phenomenon is aces for me

 

[Powerslave]

Wow. I just tried a Prince game with the Nov 22 AI, and kicked major ass in terms of warmongering, despite a rather poor starting location (no iron, copper, or horses for miles and miles, but I did manage to claim some ivory), but I fell behind an entire age, I think! Because of my constant warmongering, the continent that I was on basically ending up being stupid. The other continent, having essentially fought no wars, was full of geniuses.

Ugh. I hate being on the stupid continent!

To make a long story short, I fell to near last place, then clawed my way back up to second or third. Man, it was brutal. My GNP went from 8th to 2nd. However, Alex and Brennus tag-teamed me, and then I fell down to 6th.

The AI certainly put up a good fight economically. Unfortunately, it still needs a little more oomph when it comes to assaulting a fortified city: Alex must have sent half a dozen SoDs against my best city. Luckily for me, that city was pumping out 15+ exp units every turn, thanks to being Cyrus.

In the end, I got bored and saved the game, but I may return to it later. Fighting over such barren land got a little boring.