A case for forum members easing up on 2K a bit
- Thread starter thelibra
- Start date
You're funny.
bjbrains
Man of U-235
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2007
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- 837
It's almost as if that's opinion rather than fact!
You're not doing a very good job of putting words in my mouth. I never would suggest that a game that has the dev and publisher credited at the start is adware because of that sole fact. However if they advertised some product for a specific price during the intro and downloaded an update every now and then so they could advertise a more relevant product I would be much much closer to calling it adware.
Also, if civ5 went so far as to start advertising its DLC in-game (for example, by including greyed out leaders that you haven't purchased yet inside the list of leaders you choose from at the start of a game), then I would be a step closer to calling it adware. Especially if there was a price and a shiny "buy" or "purchase" button next to the leader. Even if that doesn't literally make it adware, it signficantly cheapens the game experience IMO.
The definition of adware does appear to be mixed. Let's look at some:
Spoiler :
You moderate a population of trolls. It's no wonder then that you have a very different member base to what civfanatics does. Moderation is quite heavy here (by comparison!) yet you seem to be arguing that people are more trollish here. I wouldn't feel comfortable posting a legitimate complaint about software on a forum where I knew hundreds of trolls would jump on my back, flinging flames and whatever else.
What is the purpose of your comparison of civfanatics to another forum, anyway?
Perhaps trolls just love first person shooters (this is an association that many people would make, by the way, whether it's right or wrong I'm not sure). Valve are obviously going to be held in a higher regard by FPS players (all their games are FPS to my knowledge, and damn good ones) than the general gamer public (which includes TBS gamers).
So you have a forum where nearly everyone agrees with each other. Do you have the same number of members as cfc? Are the number of people posting comparable to the number of people posting in the civ5 forum here?
azzaman333
meh
People here are no better than on any other forum. The heavier moderation just means the best trolls have to be more subtle. It's quite obvious that there's a lot of posts on CFC with the sole intent to draw a negative response.
Proof that CFC is not the only forum populace interested in Civ 5. The demographics of this forum just tend to be more likely to hate Steam because their older and less likely to understand computers.
Again, there's a hell of a lot of trolls here as well. They're just more subtle, or banned more frequently.
140,000 members at Something Awful.
Depends how you define trolling. If you have examples of specific cases where a thread was started specifically for trolling but was not closed, please alert the moderators. In general, trolling threads are closed, and believe me half the time I disagree with them being closed so I don't necessarily take a completely moderator-sympathetic view here.
For individual posts, if they are trolling it usually takes them being reported as such before a moderator deals with it. I know you've been here longer than I have so I'm sure it's probably a bit rude I'm explaining these things.
Ha, what a cheap shot. There is no evidence to support your insulting argument, I'm sorry.
Even if we supposed they did understand computers less, I think it would be fair to say they understand business a lot more and the realities of the world groups like Valve, 2K etc. operate in.
Exactly, so trolls are closely monitored here. Whenever it goes too far they are dealt with and posts are modified (if necessary).
It's not about whether a forum has trolls or not. It's about whether trolls are allowed their freedom to disrupt a civil conversation. At least there is some attempt here to prevent trolls from turning every thread into a flame war.
Ok, thanks for the info. How many of those have an active interest in civ games? Is there a civ subforum or something like that?
Senethro
Overlord
Oddly enough despite being full of trolls, SA has less moderators per active user and usually less problems with disruptive posting than CFC. This might be due to not needing to give 10 warnings before a ban like at CFC. Its games forum is also too large to characterize as an FPS forum or whatever. Its just a lot of people who like games.
As for adware, is there much adware with an option to turn the ads off? Steam doesn't look to fit the definition to me.
PoM, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence for the anti-Steam contingent to be saying "I've been buying Civilization since the first version and still have the original disks. This is the first one I refuse to buy because of Steam." That poll even showed that users too young to have a credit card and those much older than 18-35 were less likely to view Steam favourably.
As for adware, is there much adware with an option to turn the ads off? Steam doesn't look to fit the definition to me.
PoM, there is a lot of anecdotal evidence for the anti-Steam contingent to be saying "I've been buying Civilization since the first version and still have the original disks. This is the first one I refuse to buy because of Steam." That poll even showed that users too young to have a credit card and those much older than 18-35 were less likely to view Steam favourably.
tom2050
Deity
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2005
- Messages
- 5,516
Thyrwyn
Guardian at the Gate
...And anecdotal evidence is just that: anecdotal. Those polls are fun, but provide no insight to either the civ or even the CFC populations as a whole - they are only indicative of the views of those users who chose to vote in the poll(s).
So we're arguing the moderating process for trolls is flawed at cfc? I haven't seen this discussed much in the past but from the sounds of it it has been. From what I can tell, sometimes trolls are banned before 10 warnings, but it depends on the severity of the offence I think.
Yep, this puts it in the relatively friendly bracket of adware.
It might have been in another thread where I said it but I base my calling it adware on the default setup since I'd estimate that for any particular setting, in general more people would leave it as default than not. When I set up steam again a couple of months or so ago, I didn't at first notice you can change the default page from the steam store, for example, but I did notice you could disable the popup ads. Even if you prevent these things from loading, steam could still fit the adware definition based on the fact it downloads ads automatically (unless you put it in offline mode - again, probably much less than the majority constantly run the program in offline mode).The main reason I'm prepared to call Steam adware is that IMO it's obvious that's its main purpose. Most of the "features" like chatting with friends, achievements etc. could easily be done by individual games. Even the Steam DRM is fluff in comparison to its functionality as a shop.
If at some point Valve decided to remove all ads from Steam, I suspect the Steam service would either eventually disappear or begin having to charge subscription fees. It's essential to its existence that it contain ads. It's just part of their business model and I'm happy to accept that. I'd also argue it's completely logical and sensible. I have a slight dislike however for marketing in general so the fact steam comes with it likely puts me in a prejudiced position against it.
And there's anecdotal evidence suggesting the majority of civ players don't want steam. Yet we're correctly informed by steam fans the polls mean very little. Are we to assume now that posts which are not even as organised as polls carry some meaningful data that is just as good if not better than what polls provide? I'm sorry but it's a huge stretch to try and claim cfc members are older and therefore don't understand computers as much based on a few opinions from posters.
I could see it perhaps being a reasonable argument to link someone's dislike of steam with how much they know about steam, but to extend that to how much they know about computers is taking it too far. I would argue that in general the older a person is the more they know about computers, but only up to a point (e.g. up to about 35 years old where beyond that we're looking at generations who didn't grow up with computers). If you want to look at how much people use newer technology like mobile phones, facebook, ipods etc then I think it would be similarly justified to argue the younger age bracket understand the things better (if only because they use it more).
Saying that there's less problems per user is also unfair- as lets face, the Steam fiasco probably is the most riled up users have ever been on here. Usually things are much more civil. I know in my case, about 25% of my total posts here have been due to this.
azzaman333
meh
Poland, or the lack thereof, riled up users significantly more.
Senethro
Overlord
The CFC moderation policy is largely very successful in the civilization related forums. There are a few posters who are just a bit "out there" though and a danger to themselves that could do with a gentle suppressing.
I don't think even the polls ever showed a majority opposed to Steam, though it depended on how you divvied up the various shades of intermediate opinion.
I don't think you notice the demographic oddities of the CFC forum because they seem normal to you. There is a significant presence of the 40 year old who picked up Civilization I just as he was leaving university and its the only game series hes bought since and you just don't see this guy in FPS/RTS games. Hes only tenuously connected to gaming at all and when a new thing like Steam comes along it can seem more trouble than its worth to learn about. Its not about his knowledge of computers, its the willingness to change or do things differently. Its just a habit of inertia that resists changing direction. Hell, even I'm starting to do it in some areas. I've two multi-core computers but a 5 year old $15 pay as you go mobile handset that my provider keeps trying to cancel or tempt me off because I only spend about $3 a month. I'd have continued happily with this for 5 more years but the sheer utility of the iphone is in danger of making me buy one.
A problem is the anti-Steam arguement here is being made by people who think commercial anti-virus is a threat to their computer, people who want to organize a protest about a video game, those who think Valve is spying on them, those who think Steam is the death/corporate strangling of PC gaming and many other extreme positions. These are not good representatives for a point of view. There has been a few respectful posters who have posted once and explained in reasonable terms why Steamworks is not suitable for them but not nearly in the numbers that I think would give 2K cause for concern.
I don't think even the polls ever showed a majority opposed to Steam, though it depended on how you divvied up the various shades of intermediate opinion.
I don't think you notice the demographic oddities of the CFC forum because they seem normal to you. There is a significant presence of the 40 year old who picked up Civilization I just as he was leaving university and its the only game series hes bought since and you just don't see this guy in FPS/RTS games. Hes only tenuously connected to gaming at all and when a new thing like Steam comes along it can seem more trouble than its worth to learn about. Its not about his knowledge of computers, its the willingness to change or do things differently. Its just a habit of inertia that resists changing direction. Hell, even I'm starting to do it in some areas. I've two multi-core computers but a 5 year old $15 pay as you go mobile handset that my provider keeps trying to cancel or tempt me off because I only spend about $3 a month. I'd have continued happily with this for 5 more years but the sheer utility of the iphone is in danger of making me buy one.
A problem is the anti-Steam arguement here is being made by people who think commercial anti-virus is a threat to their computer, people who want to organize a protest about a video game, those who think Valve is spying on them, those who think Steam is the death/corporate strangling of PC gaming and many other extreme positions. These are not good representatives for a point of view. There has been a few respectful posters who have posted once and explained in reasonable terms why Steamworks is not suitable for them but not nearly in the numbers that I think would give 2K cause for concern.
I must go against the trend. I'm 55 years old, I have either worked in IT or with computers since 1973. I have owned a PC or similar since the mid 80's (VIC 20 was my first machine a huge 3.5K of computing power. LOL.)
I think the Civ and Steam alliance is one of the best things to happen to the franchise. Without the need to build their own MP, it will deliver a far superior game overall.
I am at the point now where I don't care what anyone says against Steam. My personal history with Steam has been nothing short of excellent.
To all you other old f@rts. Time to come into the 21st century. It's not as scary as you think.
I think the Civ and Steam alliance is one of the best things to happen to the franchise. Without the need to build their own MP, it will deliver a far superior game overall.
I am at the point now where I don't care what anyone says against Steam. My personal history with Steam has been nothing short of excellent.
To all you other old f@rts. Time to come into the 21st century. It's not as scary as you think.
I can't disagree with that. Fingers crossed civ5 will have much superior MP to civ4 as IMO the best replayability with any game comes from a strong MP side of the game. Moddability is a close second. If civ5 using steamworks does these two things well, I will feel the series has overall improved. Unfortunately we have practically zero info about either of the two except the expected marketing. I can't wait to hear more news about these things though or even better, see them in action.
The_Coyote
Emperor
Not really, the top rate in the age steam reluctantly poll was ~ 66% (all figures are positive attitide towards steam) in the group of the 11 - 20 years old, ~59% 21 - 30 and ~ 47% in 31 - 40 and ~ 40% in the 41 + group. There is a age - releuctantly depency - but also it seems to be more a reason which is also losely connected with the age, and nothing really age specific.
First sentence - i think it was not the best thing that could happen to the franchise (if it is a worse thing? For me: yes. But in general, i don´t know?
Only the time can show this.) and to the second, we have to wait and hope the best. (and can´t remember civ4 had also a mullitplayer abilities - so they hadn´t write this part from scratch if they hadn´t used steamworks)Not being a that old guy, but please can you help me a bit. I *think* i live in the 21st century, but consider steam not as an essential part of this century. So what do you mean with "come to the 21st century". Or did you really mean using steam is this major step?
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I can say, at least this doesn´t apply to me. There are other things that make me want to replay a game - the multiplayer aspect was ever only a (sometimes never used) bonus, nothing more to me.
it also depends, but in the case of civ4 it´s certainly true.
Honestly i think and wouldn´t question that this two points - multitplayer / community aspect and the opportunity to show mods to all players in a central mod hub were the main reason for Firaxis to choose steamworks. But anyway i don´t start to fall in love with steam because of this
kozzer
Liberated Autocrat
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2005
- Messages
- 141
Personally, I'd have bought Civ5 on steam whether it was required or not. It makes things easier, over the long haul. But, I also understand why many here are opposed. While I don't intend to convince anyone to be all lovey-dovey with regard to steam, I've noticed a few particular reasons for resistance, and would like to provide my thoughts to demonstrate why it's not as bad as people might think...
1) Steam is always running, using resources and collecting data even when not playing games: you can set steam to not auto-start at Windows boot. I've verified that neither the steam.exe or any associated DLL's/processes are running under any windows user. And I've also analyzed all my HTTP and HTTPS communications verifying that there's no internet traffic related to steam when not using it.
2) Steam collects user and system data (aka "it's spyware"), and I don't want it to: This is probably true (I haven't read steam's EULA), but to make you feel better/worse, keep in mind that every single application that connects to the internet does this as well. Including Windows itself. Google Chrome (actually Google anything) keeps a search and browse history on their servers. IE keeps track of user data on their servers. All major email providers data mine your email to cater on-page ads to keywords appearing in your emails. Gaming consoles with internet connections continuously upload user data, including what you play, when you play it, how long you play it, and what you do when you play it. It's not like steam is any different than anything else related to the internet.
3) Steam is essentially adware, and I just wanna play the game, not see ads: I have my steam games as regular desktop icons, which once double-clicked the game is directly launched - you never see the steam client or any ads. But yes, the steam client is adware, just like iTunes is adware (which, by the way, also collects user and system data from you).
4) Steam is filling the role of invasive DRM: This is unquestionably true, except that you can minimize its effect by always being in offline mode (which is a bit of a misnomer, because the steam client will always check for updates if there's an internet connection available), but just about every game has some sort of DRM. But the DRM steam has is fairly liberal when it comes down to it. You can install it as many times as you like, you can burn your games to disk, and your game license never expires.
Now again, I'm not trying to convince anyone to "Learn to Stop Worrying and Love The Steam", because your resistance is out of principle, but what going on with the steam-Civ5 dynamic isn't any better or worse than any other online experience you've ever had (including while browsing/posting on this forum), whether you knew it or not. I just want to show that the negative aspects aren't really that far out of line, and while you may never like it you should at least be open to tolerating it. And if not, then I guess you're voting with your wallet.
1) Steam is always running, using resources and collecting data even when not playing games: you can set steam to not auto-start at Windows boot. I've verified that neither the steam.exe or any associated DLL's/processes are running under any windows user. And I've also analyzed all my HTTP and HTTPS communications verifying that there's no internet traffic related to steam when not using it.
2) Steam collects user and system data (aka "it's spyware"), and I don't want it to: This is probably true (I haven't read steam's EULA), but to make you feel better/worse, keep in mind that every single application that connects to the internet does this as well. Including Windows itself. Google Chrome (actually Google anything) keeps a search and browse history on their servers. IE keeps track of user data on their servers. All major email providers data mine your email to cater on-page ads to keywords appearing in your emails. Gaming consoles with internet connections continuously upload user data, including what you play, when you play it, how long you play it, and what you do when you play it. It's not like steam is any different than anything else related to the internet.
3) Steam is essentially adware, and I just wanna play the game, not see ads: I have my steam games as regular desktop icons, which once double-clicked the game is directly launched - you never see the steam client or any ads. But yes, the steam client is adware, just like iTunes is adware (which, by the way, also collects user and system data from you).
4) Steam is filling the role of invasive DRM: This is unquestionably true, except that you can minimize its effect by always being in offline mode (which is a bit of a misnomer, because the steam client will always check for updates if there's an internet connection available), but just about every game has some sort of DRM. But the DRM steam has is fairly liberal when it comes down to it. You can install it as many times as you like, you can burn your games to disk, and your game license never expires.
Now again, I'm not trying to convince anyone to "Learn to Stop Worrying and Love The Steam", because your resistance is out of principle, but what going on with the steam-Civ5 dynamic isn't any better or worse than any other online experience you've ever had (including while browsing/posting on this forum), whether you knew it or not. I just want to show that the negative aspects aren't really that far out of line, and while you may never like it you should at least be open to tolerating it. And if not, then I guess you're voting with your wallet.
Greybriar
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 16, 2006
- Messages
- 418
Everyone really should read the Steam Subscriber Agreement. It is an official statement from the source and I don't think you can get much more authoritative than that.
kozzer
Liberated Autocrat
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2005
- Messages
- 141
Steam's site is blocked where I'm at - does it invalidate anything in my post? (just curious)
That is not the sole group opposing Steam. My opposition is based on two factors
a) Valve's market share potentially leading to a monopoly, then Valve using that monopoly to gouge the consumer. I'll admit this is a bit far-fetched, but seeing the Steam Sunshine Squad in action on these forums makes me believe otherwise. There are people who will actually pay more for an inferior product, just for the Steam branding. I just hope that the other services can compete better and force Valve to improve its terms.
b) As above, the fact that Steam is inferior to me then Impulse and Gamersgate, in terms of download quality.
I've never been opposed to digital downloads. I've even used Steam, which is why I know it's inferior. It downloads slower then Impulse. You can have your game bricked by Valve. You can have Steam fail on you. Those things are rare, but enough to make it inferior. This is why a Steam game to me is a budget game by nature of its having Steam.
I have no problem with people who love Steam, provided they accept that their opinion isn't held by everybody, and don't wish for all games be mandatory, exclusive Steam games. Unfortunately, that's what some on here want.
I will agree with Senethro in one thing: I think my opinion is that of a small minority, but that doesn't mean I'm not right ^_^
