A cogent explanation on the shortfalls of Civ V

in civ iv. There are costs--direct and indirect. New cities, especially in the early game prohibited expanding too quickly, due to city maintenance costs. There were indirect costs as well. Getting too big meant getting entangled in diplomatic and military conflicts that could embroil the player in them.

Those indirect costs might apply to the early game. In the mid or late game, defeating an opposing empire usually naturally means less military conflicts and diplomatic problems. At least from that giant opponent you just beat.

I had a really interesting experience the first time I defeated and took over a large opponent in Civ V. I had obviously gained something big- a lot of new cities (puppets plus one accidentally annexed) which would greatly increase my science output for the rest of the game (it was late middle ages), and the removal of an enemy which had attacked me before and we were always on bad diplomatic terms. But, I soon came to realize that this sudden expansion was a big problem, my next challenge. I was bleeding money and my empire was severely unhappy and unproductive. My soldiers were unhappy too, so no moving on to the next opponent. I went about constructing more happiness and gold producing buildings, as well as started the Forbidden Palace, which reduces unhappiness due to size by 50%. As my gold ran out, I scraped the bottom of the barrel, disbanding units for gold, shifting many cities optimize gold production, and sacrificing a general for a golden age. Full on domestic crisis. But, I turned the corner. Markets and banks were finally built, happiness crept back up, and finally the completion of the Forbidden Palace pulled me out. Now I was a large, happy, and wealthy empire, ready to get in gear for the next conquest. The shifting from a healthy medium size empire, to a struggling large one, and finally to a vibrant large empire was thrilling and challenging. This is what it's all about.
 
I have to agree with the OP here.

Same here. It's an awesome analysis, helped sort my own thoughts too. Thank you.
 
While you have some idea in all points and I hope patches will tweak most of them I don't think they are that huge problem.

For example your first point was this:

1) Onerous restrictions

The restrictions in this civ (happiness and maintenance costs) are stronger than in past versions (happiness, health, and gold), requiring that the user pay so much attention to these resources at the margins that it renders the game less enjoyable, as the player is forced to contend with tighter restrictions than in past games.

Culture is another issue. Like the other two mechanics, this one prejudices against more cities and expansions because the cost of accruing more social policies doesn’t scale well with empire size.

The result of these mechanics is that they contribute to a severely limited playstyle, as it renders many strategies ineffective, limiting the option of the player, since so much attention must be paid to these very unforgiving game mechanics. For example, fast expansions are now too difficult without a plethora of luxuries nearby.

I actually think that new system is much better than old one.

There is now some restrictions on what I build. I can't just build everything in every city. I actually have to think. Because much less buildings are needed to make city viable I can actually settle cities lot later and they are still viable and because mindless expansion is not rewarded there actually is room to build cities even on later eras instead of world getting full very fast.

Of course there are problems. For example raze/annex/puppet city option is not balanced since in most cases it it better to raze and resettle city than either puppet or annex. Some buildings are probably too useless to build and upkeep/cost of units is probably bit too high and favors too small armies. I just hope game makers are busy making balance patch. After all this is unpatched version of game. It is bound to have balance issues.
 
All of those issues can be addressed by either improving the AI or adjusting numbers in the background until things work properly. Hence, Civ V's mechanics aren't at fault, here. If they were, then no amount of balancing would ever adequately address the game's faults.
 
Improving the AI is a NON issue. The AI is as smart as it gets; since CIV 1 nothing has changed. The AI is nothing more then a digital game-mechanic, with no intelligence at all. It's all scripted and on top of that; scripted badly.
 
Nicely written post. Just my 2 cents below. Please do excuse me if I have ‘missed the point’ in my comments below :)
1) Onerous restrictions

The restrictions in this civ (happiness and maintenance costs) are stronger than in past versions (happiness, health, and gold), requiring that the user pay so much attention to these resources at the margins that it renders the game less enjoyable, as the player is forced to contend with tighter restrictions than in past games.

The game is quite enjoyable to me, more so than Civ IV was, and I haven’t found that the restrictions are tighter at all. Would you care to cite a specific example from your games to illustrate what you mean?

[Culture is another issue. Like the other two mechanics, this one prejudices against more cities and expansions because the cost of accruing more social policies doesn’t scale well with empire size.

It is possible to win cultural victories with large empires, as a few people have proven…so as far as I can tell you can still have more cities but high culture.

The result of these mechanics is that they contribute to a severely limited playstyle, as it renders many strategies ineffective, limiting the option of the player, since so much attention must be paid to these very unforgiving game mechanics. For example, fast expansions are now too difficult without a plethora of luxuries nearby.
I found fast expansions to be difficult as well in Civ IV, as expanding too fast would mean a negative GPT and cripple my Science rate.


2) Inconsistent mechanics

Buildings are now rendered useless by many of the games restrictions. Given maintenance costs, the length of building times, and the necessity to maintain constant construction of gold producing and happiness producing structures, a lot of buildings are now useless. To use stables as an example, the time and cost required to get them operational is not worth the trade-off of building extra units without them, especially since this iteration of the franchise allows for fewer units and allows units to carry over xp when upgrading.

This I have to agree with, to a certain extent. In my recent 2 games I’ve not bothered building barracks or stables at all. I would much rather use the production time to build military units. Not all buildings are useless though. For example, you will need colosseums for large empires. You’ll want to build seaports for those coastal cities working on 2 or more sea resources.

Wonders are weaker in this Civ than in any other. While it’s true that every civ game has had its fair share of useless wonders, this one seems to have even weaker ones. Coupled with longer building times, this change makes even less sense.

I agree. For example the Eiffel Tower, Notre Dame are a couple weak wonders that come to mind.

There are too many units, especially in modern times. You can’t build them all, or even a good fraction of them, when unit maintenance costs and build times are higher, and when the stacking mechanic has been removed.
Not too sure about this. Maybe you can’t build them all, but you can certainly build most of them, from my experience so far. Besides, perhaps the idea isn’t to build them all, but to only build the ones you need?

Turning cities into puppets is just as expensive since the AI seems to like massing buildings, which eventually empty your offers in maintenance costs.

This really depends on the situation, imho. I find that in most of my games the increased gold you get from puppet cities helps to more than offset the maintenance costs. I guess it also helps to make solely trading post improvements around puppet cities, to limit their growth and production capability.

Diplomatic victories couldn’t be more shallow. In past civ games, the player was required to actually build alliances and improve relations over time. In Civ IV, the AI even kept a memory of your past infractions. Now all that is needed is to buy off the city states before a vote.

I definitely agree that diplomatic victories feel ‘cheap’ now. It needs more depth, for sure.

The happiness/gold/low production mechanics coupled with the inflexible victory conditions restrict too many strategies. It sacrifices depth of play for ease of play. When there are fewer options and only a few mechanics to focus intently upon, the game becomes more manageable, more accessible, and more streamlined. The cost is depth. You are forced to utilize only a handful of strategies. Gaming acumen means less now because the aforementioned restrictions don’t allow much room for maneuver. You have to pick a strategy and stick with it. The strategies are simpler (i.e. only need to conquer capitols for domination, shallow diplomatic victory, etc.) This must be done with fewer cities and fewer mechanics to balance. Even all of the options, such as buildings and units, given to you are illusory, as they are either redundant or poorly implemented, a result of trying to use some of the advancements of prior civs, such as buildings that give XP on creation, with a whole new system of mechanics that render such advancements pointless. The sheer sloppiness of design in this game is apparent at every step.

While I agree with your statement in general, I think your final sentence is a bit of an exaggeration, no? There are lots of good mixed in with the bad in Civ V.

For many Civ veterans, this is boring. We are accustomed to more strategic depth. Sure, accessibility has its advantages. This is obvious. But civilization, for all it’s critical acclaim, was never a very accessible game—it is a niche title appealing to hardcore strat gamers—and I do not understand why the developers want to turn it into one now.

A couple of questions here – first, who exactly qualifies to be a Civ veteran, and second, how do you know that many Civ veterans would find this boring?

Well, surely you can see that they would want to make it more accessible to draw in a larger audience, and thus, larger profits. I’m not saying this is the ‘right’ thing to do, I’m just saying that this is what they are (probably) doing.
 
Improving the AI is a NON issue. The AI is as smart as it gets; since CIV 1 nothing has changed. The AI is nothing more then a digital game-mechanic, with no intelligence at all. It's all scripted and on top of that; scripted badly.

You CAN teach the AI to use formations. You CAN tech the AI to not suicide embarked units. You CAN teach the AI to not let units stand around within firing range of an enemy city. I wouldn't call it "smarter", but it can definitely be improved to playability.
 
I agree with 99% of what you said. Could you explain this one more? Because I don't see it personally:

With city states.

"Give them gold and they like you, showering you with ridiculously high benefits."

--> No, I believe the benefits are small. The odd unit here and there. Might as well wipe them out.
 
I agree with 99% of what you said. Could you explain this one more? Because I don't see it personally:

With city states.

"Give them gold and they like you, showering you with ridiculously high benefits."

--> No, I believe the benefits are small. The odd unit here and there. Might as well wipe them out.

You aren't going for the right City-States. Go for the other 2 types of City-State and get the Age scaling benefits to Food and Culture.
 
First, can you cite some reasons for your statement of belief there?

Second, for me right now it's a totally evident two-track road. Dominate the rubbish AI, which is utterly crippled by the 1upt problem. Or (which I am enjoying right now for the lulz), do my best to ignore the AI and do the city state/trading post thing. Or you can swap in and out of the two, doesn't matter, mix and match. But I really do not think it's going to be just a matter of massaging...

My statement comes from the fact that more decisions in this game come with permanent consequences. Expanding beyond 3-4 cities will aid you in some victory types (such as military conquest) but at the permanent disadvantage of taking you out of the running for other victory types (cultural). Taking a social policy early will give you immediate benefits but at the permanent cost of access to a later and potentially more powerful policy.

I find decisions are far less localized as well. Choosing to annex a city is no longer just a matter of determining whether or not you can recoup its maintenance costs in a timely matter. It will affect your entire empire immediately, so decisions must be made more carefully. Excluding settling for resources, founding another city means you are always running at higher unhappiness for the same population total. So deciding whether to grow vertically or horizontally is a trickier decision.

Ultimately, the AI needs some patching. Until the AI is competitive in war (either by smarter use of tactics or level-based advantages which are always necessary to compete against a human), the game is clearly unbalanced. But assuming that point can be reached (certainly a large assumption but great strides were made with the Civ4 AI from release), I feel the game's decisions will be more difficult than in Civ4.

I'll respond to this with three points:

1) I disagree with your statement that expansion was unconditionally awarded in civ iv. There are costs--direct and indirect. New cities, especially in the early game prohibited expanding too quickly, due to city maintenance costs. There were indirect costs as well. Getting too big meant getting entangled in diplomatic and military conflicts that could embroil the player in them.


The early game expansion was limited primarily by maintenance cost. Again you never thought to yourself "Should I expand beyond 3 cities" in Civ4. You thought "When should I expand beyond 3 cities". There were certainly ways you could settle cities that would increase tensions. But it was not the mere act of having more cities that caused the problem; proximity to the next civilization was responsible.

2) I also don't think you fairly characterize expansion. You claim it makes the game one dimensional because expansion helps the player achieve certain victories. First, it is only of marginal value in some victory types. Second, I don't think it did not make Civ IV one dimensional. While it was often helpful, it was never essential to victory. Civ IV gave you the choice. Civ V, as I argued and you did not address, does not allow for that luxury. If I want to achieve a cultural victory in Civ IV, I could have started out with different goals and expanded, then shifted given the geopolitical realities. Or I could have just planned to achieve one with fewer cities. That's not one dimensional; that's multidimensional. Civ V boxes the player into one approach. The same goes for diplomacy: buy off the city states. There is no centuries/decades worth of patiently building relations with the AI players. In a dominance victory, I cannot keep the cities without massive unhappiness and penalties that even affect the performance of my soldiers. My only choice is genocide.

Assuming a city could at least cover its maintenance costs, what victory condition in Civ4 would directly penalize you if you suddenly were gifted another city? I argue none. At worst it offered no advantage. In the overwhelming majority of cases it was an advantage. I am very happy to see Civ5 doesn't unconditionally favor more cities.

I can see where you are coming from with city-state diplomacy. I think you either forgetting or omitting the concept of a liberation when you discuss it (no amount of gold changes who the city-state will vote for). I do not find the influence mechanic fundamentally flawed. I think simple tweaks would easily address your concerns. For instance, you could set a maximum amount of influence that counts toward ally status from gifts of gold. For instance if you give enough gold to get 90 influence, only 60 influence will count toward determining who gets ally status. This will ensure a civilization that continually contributes gold and did more tasks for a city-state will be favored over one that simply gave gold. That cap resembles the cap put in place for gifts in Civ4 diplomacy. Below, I discuss more tweaks that would be trivial to make if you find the Civ4 diplomacy to be "deep".

I agree with your take on genocide being the most efficient choice. I agree it is a problem. I think tweaks to the puppet-city feature can solve that. The concept is solid; it just falters in execution because it does not properly balance.

3) You completely sidelined my greater argument, to focus on a minor point. The point on expansion was a minor example of a larger section. You seem to inflate the importance of this. You completely ignored my extensive analysis of the meta-game and victory conditions, which strikes me as odd, as they directly contradict much of what you have to say.

I choose to focus on something you declared was a flaw in the game. I explained how, for me personally, it was not a flaw but an improvement. I wanted to illustrate that for some a lack of flexibility means a greater emphasis on strategy. For some, decisions that carry consequences means the game requires more thought.

If you are truly interested in the bigger discussion of each victory type:

1.) Cultural - I already explained how I think this victory condition is better in Civ5 because it makes it optimal to adopt a different play style than other victory conditions.

2.) Domination - The poor AI makes this more often than not the optimal victory condition. It is the single largest advantage the human has over the AI. However, I'd argue this was true in Civ4 as well. If you had the patience for the tedium of stack-based war, it was often the optimal victory condition. As I explained above I agree with your genocide take but think that this will be fixed with tweaks to the puppet-city mechanic.

3.) Diplomatic - Diplomatic victories in Civ4 were almost equally "shallow" (as you appear to be defining shallow). By that I mean some very small tweaks to the Civ5 system would be nearly equivalent to Civ4.

a.) You claim Civ4 had memory for past transgressions. So does Civ5: the influence system penalizes you for past transgressions.

b.) Civ5 city-states vote for the person they have the best relations with. The same is true of Civ4.

c.) Civ5 allows you to gain influence by giving gifts. Civ4 allows you to gain favor by giving gifts. The difference was Civ4 had a cap on how much "influence" could be gained through direct gifts. I think there is value in bringing that back.

d.) Civ5 allows you to gain influence by militarily aiding a city-state. Civ4 allowed you to gain favor by millitarily aiding a civ.

e.) Civ5 allows you gain influence by fulfilling a city-state request. Civ5 allowed you to gain favor by fulfilling a civilization request.

f.) Civ4 rewarded peaceful relations/open borders. I think adding this to Civ5 in the form of a small influence bonus for maintaining friendly status could do the trick.

g.) Civ4 rewarded shared civics. I could see some value in Civ5 city-states giving influence bonuses to civilizations who adopt certain social policies.

h.) Civ4 rewarded shared religion. Obviously there is no religion in Civ5. But as it pertains to diplomatic victory, the presence of religion in Civ4 led to some huge exploits. I am happy to see it gone in its Civ4 form (though I wouldn't mind seeing a superior religion system added to Civ5).

i.) Civ5 has the concept of a permanent vote when you liberate a captured city-state. Civ4 had no equivalent.
 
My statement comes from the fact that more decisions in this game come with permanent consequences. Expanding beyond 3-4 cities will aid you in some victory types (such as military conquest) but at the permanent disadvantage of taking you out of the running for other victory types (cultural). Taking a social policy early will give you immediate benefits but at the permanent cost of access to a later and potentially more powerful policy.

I find decisions are far less localized as well. Choosing to annex a city is no longer just a matter of determining whether or not you can recoup its maintenance costs in a timely matter. It will affect your entire empire immediately, so decisions must be made more carefully. Excluding settling for resources, founding another city means you are always running at higher unhappiness for the same population total. So deciding whether to grow vertically or horizontally is a trickier decision.

Ultimately, the AI needs some patching. Until the AI is competitive in war (either by smarter use of tactics or level-based advantages which are always necessary to compete against a human), the game is clearly unbalanced. But assuming that point can be reached (certainly a large assumption but great strides were made with the Civ4 AI from release), I feel the game's decisions will be more difficult than in Civ4.




The early game expansion was limited primarily by maintenance cost. Again you never thought to yourself "Should I expand beyond 3 cities" in Civ4. You thought "When should I expand beyond 3 cities". There were certainly ways you could settle cities that would increase tensions. But it was not the mere act of having more cities that caused the problem; proximity to the next civilization was responsible.



Assuming a city could at least cover its maintenance costs, what victory condition in Civ4 would directly penalize you if you suddenly were gifted another city? I argue none. At worst it offered no advantage. In the overwhelming majority of cases it was an advantage. I am very happy to see Civ5 doesn't unconditionally favor more cities.

I can see where you are coming from with city-state diplomacy. I think you either forgetting or omitting the concept of a liberation when you discuss it (no amount of gold changes who the city-state will vote for). I do not find the influence mechanic fundamentally flawed. I think simple tweaks would easily address your concerns. For instance, you could set a maximum amount of influence that counts toward ally status from gifts of gold. For instance if you give enough gold to get 90 influence, only 60 influence will count toward determining who gets ally status. This will ensure a civilization that continually contributes gold and did more tasks for a city-state will be favored over one that simply gave gold. That cap resembles the cap put in place for gifts in Civ4 diplomacy. Below, I discuss more tweaks that would be trivial to make if you find the Civ4 diplomacy to be "deep".

I agree with your take on genocide being the most efficient choice. I agree it is a problem. I think tweaks to the puppet-city feature can solve that. The concept is solid; it just falters in execution because it does not properly balance.



I choose to focus on something you declared was a flaw in the game. I explained how, for me personally, it was not a flaw but an improvement. I wanted to illustrate that for some a lack of flexibility means a greater emphasis on strategy. For some, decisions that carry consequences means the game requires more thought.

If you are truly interested in the bigger discussion of each victory type:

1.) Cultural - I already explained how I think this victory condition is better in Civ5 because it makes it optimal to adopt a different play style than other victory conditions.

2.) Domination - The poor AI makes this more often than not the optimal victory condition. It is the single largest advantage the human has over the AI. However, I'd argue this was true in Civ4 as well. If you had the patience for the tedium of stack-based war, it was often the optimal victory condition. As I explained above I agree with your genocide take but think that this will be fixed with tweaks to the puppet-city mechanic.

3.) Diplomatic - Diplomatic victories in Civ4 were almost equally "shallow" (as you appear to be defining shallow). By that I mean some very small tweaks to the Civ5 system would be nearly equivalent to Civ4.

a.) You claim Civ4 had memory for past transgressions. So does Civ5: the influence system penalizes you for past transgressions.

b.) Civ5 city-states vote for the person they have the best relations with. The same is true of Civ4.

c.) Civ5 allows you to gain influence by giving gifts. Civ4 allows you to gain favor by giving gifts. The difference was Civ4 had a cap on how much "influence" could be gained through direct gifts. I think there is value in bringing that back.

d.) Civ5 allows you to gain influence by militarily aiding a city-state. Civ4 allowed you to gain favor by millitarily aiding a civ.

e.) Civ5 allows you gain influence by fulfilling a city-state request. Civ5 allowed you to gain favor by fulfilling a civilization request.

f.) Civ4 rewarded peaceful relations/open borders. I think adding this to Civ5 in the form of a small influence bonus for maintaining friendly status could do the trick.

g.) Civ4 rewarded shared civics. I could see some value in Civ5 city-states giving influence bonuses to civilizations who adopt certain social policies.

h.) Civ4 rewarded shared religion. Obviously there is no religion in Civ5. But as it pertains to diplomatic victory, the presence of religion in Civ4 led to some huge exploits. I am happy to see it gone in its Civ4 form (though I wouldn't mind seeing a superior religion system added to Civ5).

i.) Civ5 has the concept of a permanent vote when you liberate a captured city-state. Civ4 had no equivalent.

There's still one fundamental problem with Civ 5 Diplomatic Victory. Even if we agreed to call the present mechanic "diplomacy", the Diplomatic Victory has nothing to do with that mechanic. I remember someone's signature in this forum advised, quite wisely, to remember there's no biggest bank account victory in Civ IV. In Civ V, there is, and it stole the Diplomatic Victory's identity.
 
There's still one fundamental problem with Civ 5 Diplomatic Victory. Even if we agreed to call the present mechanic "diplomacy", the Diplomatic Victory has nothing to do with that mechanic. I remember someone's signature in this forum advised, quite wisely, to remember there's no biggest bank account victory in Civ IV. In Civ V, there is, and it stole the Diplomatic Victory's identity.

That isn't true if enough city-states have been liberated. And it ceases to be true by simply putting a hard cap on the influence from gold that counts toward ally status. Balance on the whole needs some massaging. This is one example of how a simple change can drastically change the game. Whether that is for the better or worse is of course up for debate. I personally see value in this particular objection to diplomacy, but I do not presume to speak for the majority. And if more players prefer a cap-less system, it seems reasonable to have it remain cap-less.

(I'd also argue on a tangent that if you call diplomatic victory in Civ5 a biggest bank account victory condition, space race was a biggest bank account victory condition because the slider allowed you to directly convert commerce to science. But that's neither here nor there.)
 
I'll speak to point 5.

Civ4 unconditionally rewarded expansion of the empire. There was essentially no victory condition where an increased number of cities wouldn't be beneficial:

1.) Conquest/Domination: Military production is increased significantly with more cities.
2.) Space Race: The moment a city generated more commerce than it cost in maintenance, it was a net addition to tech speed.
3.) Diplomatic: Increased tech speed gives you the technologies/gold you need to bribe Civs to be friendly.
4.) Cultural: Allows you to build more temples and increased tech speed gets you to key techs faster.
5.) Time: More cities results in a higher score.

Mastering Civ4 was a matter of mastering expansion of your empire. Virtually every situation rewarded you for expansion of your empire. It wasn't a matter of if you should expand, but when. This is not the case for Civ5, and I consider that to be a benefit. It encourages varying gameplay styles.

Small empires are not at an inherent disadvantage to larger empires. In some cases (as in the case of cultural victory), you are rewarded for maintaining a smaller empire. In other cases, you can still maintain some parity with a larger empire (largely due to the global happiness mechanic, separation of research from commerce, and city-states). And in some cases, you are at a disadvantage, such as military conquest.

This makes gameplay less one dimensional as it pertains to victory conditions. It does force you to make difficult choices (e.g. should I expand to that 4th/5th city for a military/tech advantage and effectively eliminate cultural victory as an option). It does attach more permanence to your decisions than the decisions made in Civ4. It means the cost of your decisions won't be relegated to solely opportunity cost. But I consider these difficult decisions the basis of a good strategy game. I consider the long-term ramifications of your decisions an improvement. The flexibility you miss, I am happy to see gone. It rewards well-thought out plans and foresight. And to me that is what a strategy game is about.

The game certainly needs massaging. But ultimately I feel once more work is put into balancing the game, the decisions are going to be harder to make in Civ5 than they are in Civ4. The path to victory will be less evident than it was in Civ4. It's not there yet, but I look forward to it. The game design is certainly better set up for it than Civ4 ever was.

But there was no victory condition that required you to expand beyond the threshold to get national wonders. You could win a cultural game with 6 cities just as much as you could win a cultural game with 24 cities, it was all a matter of how you managed them. Was expansion rewarded in Civ 4? Yes, and why shouldn't it have been. Who dares wins.
 
That isn't true if enough city-states have been liberated. And it ceases to be true by simply putting a hard cap on the influence from gold that counts toward ally status. Balance on the whole needs some massaging. This is one example of how a simple change can drastically change the game. Whether that is for the better or worse is of course up for debate. I personally see value in this particular objection to diplomacy, but I do not presume to speak for the majority. And if more players prefer a cap-less system, it seems reasonable to have it remain cap-less.

(I'd also argue on a tangent that if you call diplomatic victory in Civ5 a biggest bank account victory condition, space race was a biggest bank account victory condition because the slider allowed you to directly convert commerce to science. But that's neither here nor there.)

Letting city-states get conquered in order to liberate them isn't diplomatic either. And stating a possible solution doesn't make the issue disappear. Anyway, Space Victory in Civ IV required productive cities and long term planning, and not all cities could run cottages in all their BFC, you needed empire balance the whole game. Even more, the slider increased science output at the expense of your treasury, it didn't just turn money into victory like city-states, it made you trade money for something else that may or may not make you victorious. The complexity we lost is showing here.
 
While you have some idea in all points and I hope patches will tweak most of them I don't think they are that huge problem.

For example your first point was this:



I actually think that new system is much better than old one.

There is now some restrictions on what I build. I can't just build everything in every city. I actually have to think. Because much less buildings are needed to make city viable I can actually settle cities lot later and they are still viable and because mindless expansion is not rewarded there actually is room to build cities even on later eras instead of world getting full very fast.

Of course there are problems. For example raze/annex/puppet city option is not balanced since in most cases it it better to raze and resettle city than either puppet or annex. Some buildings are probably too useless to build and upkeep/cost of units is probably bit too high and favors too small armies. I just hope game makers are busy making balance patch. After all this is unpatched version of game. It is bound to have balance issues.

You can't build everything in every city in Civ 4 and expect to win if you play a sufficiently high difficulty level.
 
Letting city-states get conquered in order to liberate them isn't diplomatic either. And stating a possible solution doesn't make the issue disappear. Anyway, Space Victory in Civ IV required productive cities and long term planning, and not all cities could run cottages in all their BFC, you needed empire balance the whole game. Even more, the slider increased science output at the expense of your treasury, it didn't just turn money into victory like city-states, it made you trade money for something else that may or may not make you victorious. The complexity we lost is showing here.

Totally agree with this. Shifting the slider doesn't mean anything without planning your cities building ques to be optimized with the surrounding improvements.
 
I actually think that new system is much better than old one.

There is now some restrictions on what I build. I can't just build everything in every city. I actually have to think. Because much less buildings are needed to make city viable I can actually settle cities lot later and they are still viable and because mindless expansion is not rewarded there actually is room to build cities even on later eras instead of world getting full very fast.
The problem is that the thinking in Civ5 is related to the type of win you plan to achieve. Once you understand which buildings are correct for each win type, the answer is easy and quite formulaic. All cities should build more or less the same thing.

In Civ4, the selection of building type is related to the type of city you want. It takes much more analysis to determine which city should be a GP farm, where to build the HE, which city should have cottages, which city should have markets, which city should have the NE, etc.
 
The problem is that the thinking in Civ5 is related to the type of win you plan to achieve. Once you understand which buildings are correct for each win type, the answer is easy and quite formulaic. All cities should build more or less the same thing.

In Civ4, the selection of building type is related to the type of city you want. It takes much more analysis to determine which city should be a GP farm, where to build the HE, which city should have cottages, which city should have markets, which city should have the NE, etc.

Yes. ciV has been reduced to simple formula. You want a cultural win so you build very few cities and almost exclusively build cultural buildings. If you deviate from your "swim lane" too much, all is lost.

It's much more simplistic and planned out for you then a cultural victory in cIV.

Diplomatic victories are so stupid I always deselect them when I start a new game. Bribing City States to vote for you is pretty dull after doing it once or twice :(.
 
Small empires are not at an inherent disadvantage to larger empires. In some cases (as in the case of cultural victory), you are rewarded for maintaining a smaller empire. In other cases, you can still maintain some parity with a larger empire (largely due to the global happiness mechanic, separation of research from commerce, and city-states). And in some cases, you are at a disadvantage, such as military conquest.

This makes gameplay less one dimensional as it pertains to victory conditions. It does force you to make difficult choices (e.g. should I expand to that 4th/5th city for a military/tech advantage and effectively eliminate cultural victory as an option). It does attach more permanence to your decisions than the decisions made in Civ4. It means the cost of your decisions won't be relegated to solely opportunity cost. But I consider these difficult decisions the basis of a good strategy game. I consider the long-term ramifications of your decisions an improvement. The flexibility you miss, I am happy to see gone. It rewards well-thought out plans and foresight. And to me that is what a strategy game is about.

This is obviously what the developers intended with their design. There's just one problem: it's not true. Larger empires are much, much better than smaller empires in Civ5. The only cost is slower policies - everything else (production, research, gold) is a huge positive for large empires. You're already seeing players starting to find ways around the happiness issue, and with the massive benefits on the center tile (not hard to get 8 food + 8 production on the center tile alone!) the metagame will shift towards massive numbers of smaller cities, in the classic Infinite City Sprawl (ICS) style. You can use Liberty + Order for enormous production, or Rationalism + Freedom for an empire of ultra-powerful specialists. All of the food comes from Maritime city states; you can ignore the local landscape completely. With Liberty's Meritocracy (+1 happy per city connected to capital) and Order's Planned Economy (-50% unhappy per city) or the Forbidden Palace wonder, each city costs only its own population in unhappiness. Cap its growth at size 4, build a colosseum, and every city is happy-neutral. Now you can spam them endlessly across the map, and every city simply adds more production, more research, more gold.....

Civ5 is supposed to introduce strategic tradeoffs, but the problem is that the design of the game is flawed, and certain game elements break other elements. The game is supposed to reward small empires, and yet spamming tons of little cities appears at the moment to be the most powerful strategy! Well, outside the cheese Companion Cavalry rush. :lol:
 
I only agree with the points on Diplomacy and A.I.

Diplomacy needs to be more detailed and informative.

A.I. just plain old needs to be better with units.
 
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