A cogent explanation on the shortfalls of Civ V

Yes. ciV has been reduced to simple formula. You want a cultural win so you build very few cities and almost exclusively build cultural buildings. If you deviate from your "swim lane" too much, all is lost.

It's much more simplistic and planned out for you then a cultural victory in cIV.

Diplomatic victories are so stupid I always deselect them when I start a new game. Bribing City States to vote for you is pretty dull after doing it once or twice :(.

The thing is, there are varying ways to get a cultural victory in Civ 4 too. If you establish your religion worldwide or you go for a religion heavy path, you can more peacefully go for an early cultural win using religion buildings. If you are mired in a bunch of religious alliances you can go for a late cultural win using radio towers and wonders and civics and slider. There's also the ability to use great artists individually to achieve the cultural win and a decision has to be made whether it's better to use them here and now for the culture bomb or to save them for the Jewels Corporation which provides culture in their own right.
 
Currently trying to achieve a cultural victory in Civ V.

My small, two city Egyptian empire requires almost no management. I simply set a new social policy every 12-15 turns as when they pop. I spam golden ages when I have great people to build cultural wonders, and I move a worker to a new tile from time to time, but as by borders are nearly all maxed out and up against my neighbors, this is slowly dwindling.

Soon I will have nothing to do but press Next Turn and select a new policy every 12 turns or so until I win.

Couple this with the horrid optimization, and I'd estimate that I spend 90% of my game-time waiting for the next turn, and 10% or less managing my "empire".

It is so bad I've taken to playing Wesnoth on my laptop as I wait for turns to cycle, then I reach over and hit enter on my PC every 3-4 minutes or so.

I will eventually finish this cultural victory, and then I will probably not play Civ V again.
 
But there was no victory condition that required you to expand beyond the threshold to get national wonders. You could win a cultural game with 6 cities just as much as you could win a cultural game with 24 cities, it was all a matter of how you managed them. Was expansion rewarded in Civ 4? Yes, and why shouldn't it have been. Who dares wins.

You could win a cultural victory with 3 cities even. The point is not what was possible. the point is what was optimal. I viewed the question of expansion in Civ4 almost always a calculation and not a decision. I weighed short term losses and opportunity costs against long-term gain, and I had my answer. Civ5 expansion has the same need to calculate, but it also comes with long-term tradeoffs. I need to decide if I am willing to trade flexibility with victory conditions for a more efficient approach to the victory condition I am pursuing.

So I believe expansion should not be unconditionally awarded because it makes for more interesting strategic decisions. And that adds depth to the game for me.

Letting city-states get conquered in order to liberate them isn't diplomatic either. And stating a possible solution doesn't make the issue disappear. Anyway, Space Victory in Civ IV required productive cities and long term planning, and not all cities could run cottages in all their BFC, you needed empire balance the whole game. Even more, the slider increased science output at the expense of your treasury, it didn't just turn money into victory like city-states, it made you trade money for something else that may or may not make you victorious. The complexity we lost is showing here.

My point was not that you let city-states get captured. My point was that if enough city-states were captured and liberated by other civs, you can't simply buy a diplomatic victory.

I can appreciate the desire to make diplomatic victory less tied to gold. I proposed a simple solution that may be moddable. And perhaps modding will need to be the answer. Please remember that just because you think a victory condition that is primarily tied to gold is a bad thing doesn't mean the majority feels the same.

And please also remember that Civ4 went through serious balance changes as well. It's not fair to compare the balance in a game that was released for years and went through multiple expansions to a game that has been out for a month. So if you do belong to majority (or more accurately if the designer agrees with your viewpoint), you will likely see balance in time.

As for Space Victory, I really don't want to derail this thread. And discussion of the Civ4 Space Race is pretty unrelated. I just brought it up to express that there was a victory condition that was overwhelmingly linked to commerce in Civ4 as well, and people don't seem to be complaining about that.

This is obviously what the developers intended with their design. There's just one problem: it's not true. Larger empires are much, much better than smaller empires in Civ5. The only cost is slower policies - everything else (production, research, gold) is a huge positive for large empires. You're already seeing players starting to find ways around the happiness issue, and with the massive benefits on the center tile (not hard to get 8 food + 8 production on the center tile alone!) the metagame will shift towards massive numbers of smaller cities, in the classic Infinite City Sprawl (ICS) style. You can use Liberty + Order for enormous production, or Rationalism + Freedom for an empire of ultra-powerful specialists. All of the food comes from Maritime city states; you can ignore the local landscape completely. With Liberty's Meritocracy (+1 happy per city connected to capital) and Order's Planned Economy (-50% unhappy per city) or the Forbidden Palace wonder, each city costs only its own population in unhappiness. Cap its growth at size 4, build a colosseum, and every city is happy-neutral. Now you can spam them endlessly across the map, and every city simply adds more production, more research, more gold.....

Civ5 is supposed to introduce strategic tradeoffs, but the problem is that the design of the game is flawed, and certain game elements break other elements. The game is supposed to reward small empires, and yet spamming tons of little cities appears at the moment to be the most powerful strategy! Well, outside the cheese Companion Cavalry rush. :lol:

I agree there is a need to balance it. But there is at least one play style and victory condition in Civ5 that favors a smaller civilization. You cannot say the same of Civ4.

I would also argue that the strategies you discuss are very effectively exploiting AI lack of intelligence. I think anyone who tried a similar approach against a human player would find their entire empire collapse when a player stole ally status/conquered a maritime city-state. Hopefully in time, the AI will be opportunistic enough to undermine what is a very fragile approach to expansion. I would also expect to see some caps placed on maritime city-states, perhaps something along the lines of your capital gets 4 food, your next 2 largest cities get 2 food, your next 3 largest cities get 1 food, the rest get nothing.

Currently trying to achieve a cultural victory in Civ V.

My small, two city Egyptian empire requires almost no management. I simply set a new social policy every 12-15 turns as when they pop. I spam golden ages when I have great people to build cultural wonders, and I move a worker to a new tile from time to time, but as by borders are nearly all maxed out and up against my neighbors, this is slowly dwindling.

Soon I will have nothing to do but press Next Turn and select a new policy every 12 turns or so until I win.

Couple this with the horrid optimization, and I'd estimate that I spend 90% of my game-time waiting for the next turn, and 10% or less managing my "empire".

It is so bad I've taken to playing Wesnoth on my laptop as I wait for turns to cycle, then I reach over and hit enter on my PC every 3-4 minutes or so.

I will eventually finish this cultural victory, and then I will probably not play Civ V again.

Did you never play Civ4 for a cultural victory? It wasn't remarkably different in any way. Once the foundation was in place to reach a cultural victory, crank the sliders and press next turn. I kind of enjoyed the victory type for just that reason. It allowed you to easily turn a winning position into a victory. It sure beat the tedium of stack-based warfare to end a game.
 
Very well written - I agree with most of what OP wrote. Most of his points are legitimate criticisms and NOT his mere opinion, but most of the forum community ignores these issues and spends all their time defending their purchase.

5/5 thread


EDIT: masterminded, you should post this on the 2K forums so the community managers have an opportunity to read this. I don't think it will actually result in any changes, but they should at least be aware of legitimate complaints and that a sizable minority of Civ gamers are dissatisfied with the game.
 
All of those issues can be addressed by either improving the AI or adjusting numbers in the background until things work properly. Hence, Civ V's mechanics aren't at fault, here. If they were, then no amount of balancing would ever adequately address the game's faults.

Most of them. But not the inflexibility issue where you're forced to choose a victory condition goal and stick with it if you don't want to be crippled for the rest of the game because you chose the wrong social policies for your new goal.
 
You could win a cultural victory with 3 cities even. The point is not what was possible. the point is what was optimal. I viewed the question of expansion in Civ4 almost always a calculation and not a decision. I weighed short term losses and opportunity costs against long-term gain, and I had my answer. Civ5 expansion has the same need to calculate, but it also comes with long-term tradeoffs. I need to decide if I am willing to trade flexibility with victory conditions for a more efficient approach to the victory condition I am pursuing.

So I believe expansion should not be unconditionally awarded because it makes for more interesting strategic decisions. And that adds depth to the game for me.



My point was not that you let city-states get captured. My point was that if enough city-states were captured and liberated by other civs, you can't simply buy a diplomatic victory.

I can appreciate the desire to make diplomatic victory less tied to gold. I proposed a simple solution that may be moddable. And perhaps modding will need to be the answer. Please remember that just because you think a victory condition that is primarily tied to gold is a bad thing doesn't mean the majority feels the same.

And please also remember that Civ4 went through serious balance changes as well. It's not fair to compare the balance in a game that was released for years and went through multiple expansions to a game that has been out for a month. So if you do belong to majority (or more accurately if the designer agrees with your viewpoint), you will likely see balance in time.

As for Space Victory, I really don't want to derail this thread. And discussion of the Civ4 Space Race is pretty unrelated. I just brought it up to express that there was a victory condition that was overwhelmingly linked to commerce in Civ4 as well, and people don't seem to be complaining about that.



I agree there is a need to balance it. But there is at least one play style and victory condition in Civ5 that favors a smaller civilization. You cannot say the same of Civ4.

I would also argue that the strategies you discuss are very effectively exploiting AI lack of intelligence. I think anyone who tried a similar approach against a human player would find their entire empire collapse when a player stole ally status/conquered a maritime city-state. Hopefully in time, the AI will be opportunistic enough to undermine what is a very fragile approach to expansion. I would also expect to see some caps placed on maritime city-states, perhaps something along the lines of your capital gets 4 food, your next 2 largest cities get 2 food, your next 3 largest cities get 1 food, the rest get nothing.



Did you never play Civ4 for a cultural victory? It wasn't remarkably different in any way. Once the foundation was in place to reach a cultural victory, crank the sliders and press next turn. I kind of enjoyed the victory type for just that reason. It allowed you to easily turn a winning position into a victory. It sure beat the tedium of stack-based warfare to end a game.

Having more cities for a cultural victory wasn't optimal because of how cultural victory actually worked. And I played several cultural victories and I can assure you that none was a set and forget affair. I had to manage relations, be nimble with my paltry military force, sacrifice technological progress, and make myself easy pickens to win. I had both early religious based cultural victories and later corporation and civic based cultural victories.

And I absolutely disagree that expansion shouldn't have unconditional reward but guess what, Civ 4 didn't reward it unconditionally. It rewarded growth when you could actually support it and did it intelligently with city placement, resource trading, and civic choice.
 
You could win a cultural victory with 3 cities even. The point is not what was possible. the point is what was optimal. I viewed the question of expansion in Civ4 almost always a calculation and not a decision. I weighed short term losses and opportunity costs against long-term gain, and I had my answer. Civ5 expansion has the same need to calculate, but it also comes with long-term tradeoffs. I need to decide if I am willing to trade flexibility with victory conditions for a more efficient approach to the victory condition I am pursuing.

So I believe expansion should not be unconditionally awarded because it makes for more interesting strategic decisions. And that adds depth to the game for me.

Highly rewarded expansion meant something I'm really missing in Civ V: the notion of a coherent and united empire. The colored blob that borders made turned the game map into a political map, just like the real ones. This is my country, that's another country, we're different entities. In Civ V my empire is a bunch of city-states, quite literally to some extent, and they don't even need to be close to each other. If I start alone in a small continent, I get punished for covering it with cities. The "land I feel mine" dialogue in the diplo screen is not enough to make me feel I own that land. Pretty colorred blobs did. Simple, yet effective. The other related thing that really bugs me, is that my favorite map type from Civ IV, Terra, has now no reason to exist. Why is it even in this game?

My point was not that you let city-states get captured. My point was that if enough city-states were captured and liberated by other civs, you can't simply buy a diplomatic victory.

I can appreciate the desire to make diplomatic victory less tied to gold. I proposed a simple solution that may be moddable. And perhaps modding will need to be the answer. Please remember that just because you think a victory condition that is primarily tied to gold is a bad thing doesn't mean the majority feels the same.

And please also remember that Civ4 went through serious balance changes as well. It's not fair to compare the balance in a game that was released for years and went through multiple expansions to a game that has been out for a month. So if you do belong to majority (or more accurately if the designer agrees with your viewpoint), you will likely see balance in time.

As for Space Victory, I really don't want to derail this thread. And discussion of the Civ4 Space Race is pretty unrelated. I just brought it up to express that there was a victory condition that was overwhelmingly linked to commerce in Civ4 as well, and people don't seem to be complaining about that.

About liberation, you're right. I'll concede that may be you're not letting them get conquered on purpose (it's kinda hard when you're the only conscious player but OK), and then liberation is truly a diplomatic action. But then liberation is even worse for the Diplomatic Victory. Diplo victory is half bribing and half warmonging. Not very diplomatic if you ask me. Diplo used to stand for peaceful victories (I hated vassal-states for that reason, it's a trend that started with them). Now that's only half of it, and that peaceful half is just about money and not about sustained relations with other civs and long-term planning.

Now, I wouldn't mind a money based victory (pretty realistic at this point) if it didn't take over the diplomatic one. It's not the case, unfortunately.
 
Having more cities for a cultural victory wasn't optimal because of how cultural victory actually worked. And I played several cultural victories and I can assure you that none was a set and forget affair. I had to manage relations, be nimble with my paltry military force, sacrifice technological progress, and make myself easy pickens to win. I had both early religious based cultural victories and later corporation and civic based cultural victories.

And that same level of management is still necessary for cultural victories in Civ5. You still need to control tech and use a smaller military to defend your empire.

And I absolutely disagree that expansion shouldn't have unconditional reward but guess what, Civ 4 didn't reward it unconditionally. It rewarded growth when you could actually support it and did it intelligently with city placement, resource trading, and civic choice.

Which victory condition in Civ4 would be actively penalized if you suddenly had a city added to your empire capable of covering the additional cost to maintenance it added?

Highly rewarded expansion meant something I'm really missing in Civ V: the notion of a coherent and united empire. The colored blob that borders made turned the game map into a political map, just like the real ones. This is my country, that's another country, we're different entities. In Civ V my empire is a bunch of city-states, quite literally to some extent, and they don't even need to be close to each other. If I start alone in a small continent, I get punished for covering it with cities. The "land I feel mine" dialogue in the diplo screen is not enough to make me feel I own that land. Pretty colorred blobs did. Simple, yet effective. The other related thing that really bugs me, is that my favorite map type from Civ IV, Terra, has now no reason to exist. Why is it even in this game?

I can see where you are coming from with cultural borders. Though I think that is more an issue with the culture system than the number of cities.

About liberation, you're right. I'll concede that may be you're not letting them get conquered on purpose (it's kinda hard when you're the only conscious player but OK), and then liberation is truly a diplomatic action. But then liberation is even worse for the Diplomatic Victory. Diplo victory is half bribing and half warmonging. Not very diplomatic if you ask me. Diplo used to stand for peaceful victories. Now that's only half of it, and that peaceful half is just about money and not about sustained relations with other civs and long-term planning.

Now, I wouldn't mind a money based victory (pretty realistic at this point) if it didn't take over the diplomatic one. It's not the case, unfortunately.

How many civilizations did you have friendly status with in Civ4 without joining a war for AI relations boost or gaining a population advantage through war? There were certainly diplomatic victories in Civ4 that didn't require war (though those came almost exclusively from a highly exploitable religious system), but they were certainly not the only diplomatic victories. Most of mine came from having a population advantage that came from warring combined with favorable relations with a war ally or two. Regardless, you certainly don't have to war to win a diplomatic victory in every Civ5 game.
 
Which victory condition in Civ4 would be actively penalized if you suddenly had a city added to your empire capable of covering the additional cost to maintenance it added?
And what civ V victory is actively penalized if you sudently add a city with enough infra to pay the extra SP costs and unhappy faces ? ;)
 
And that same level of management is still necessary for cultural victories in Civ5. You still need to control tech and use a smaller military to defend your empire.

There's just not myriad ways to accomplish a cultural victory now though and there isn't the same level of empire wide and city micromanagement for a cultural victory that there was. Don't even get me started on how diplomacy has no effect on your victory conditions (except for the buying off of city states).


Which victory condition in Civ4 would be actively penalized if you suddenly had a city added to your empire capable of covering the additional cost to maintenance it added?

None, but that's a non sequitar. I don't think a game should penalize you for doing your part in doing a cost benefit analysis and making a decision. You're basically arguing that it's better to be locked into a victory condition from the outset of the game rather than developing your plan for victory while playing. You can make poor comparisons to Civ 4 all you want but I still haven't seen such a rote path to victory in Civ 4 like I have in Civ 5.
 
And what civ V victory is actively penalized if you sudently add a city with enough infra to pay the extra SP costs and unhappy faces ? ;)

I am sure you realize covering the maintenance cost of a city is fairly trivial in Civ4 and almost always possible. Covering the extra SP costs and unhappiness is not trivial (and the OP finds that objectionable).

There's just not myriad ways to accomplish a cultural victory now though and there isn't the same level of empire wide and city micromanagement for a cultural victory that there was. Don't even get me started on how diplomacy has no effect on your victory conditions (except for the buying off of city states).

There was one way to accomplish cultural victory in Civ4, get 3 cities with legendary culture. Strategies to do so developed over time and were greatly influenced by expansions. As for the city micromanagement necessary to achieve that, that is debatable (and debatable if extra micromanagement is even superior).


None, but that's a non sequitar. I don't think a game should penalize you for doing your part in doing a cost benefit analysis and making a decision. You're basically arguing that it's better to be locked into a victory condition from the outset of the game rather than developing your plan for victory while playing. You can make poor comparisons to Civ 4 all you want but I still haven't seen such a rote path to victory in Civ 4 like I have in Civ 5.

Civ5 doesn't punish you for a cost-benefit analysis. It simply requires you to weigh additional variables in your decision. You are forced to choose between flexibility or specialization.

And how precisely are you locked into a victory condition from the beginning? Cultural victories are still quite plausible with 3-4 cities. It's not until that point that you are forced to make a decision. For large civs, all the other victory conditions are at least on par with a small civ.

In Civ5 you have to make decisions that have long-term ramifications. Isn't that the essence of strategy?
 
I am sure you realize covering the maintenance cost of a city is fairly trivial in Civ4 and almost always possible. Covering the extra SP costs and unhappiness is not trivial (and that seems to be a problem for the OP).



There was one way to accomplish cultural victory in Civ4, get 3 cities with legendary culture. Strategies to do so developed over time and were greatly influenced by expansions. As for the city micromanagement necessary to achieve that, that is debatable (and debatable if extra micromanagement is even superior).




Civ5 doesn't punish you for a cost-benefit analysis. It simply requires you to weigh additional variables in your decision. You are forced to choose between flexibility or specialization.

And how precisely are you locked into a victory condition from the beginning? Cultural victories are still quite plausible with 3-4 cities. It's not until that point that you are forced to make a decision. For large civs, all the other victory conditions are at least on par with a small civ.

In Civ5 you have to make decisions that have long-term ramifications. Isn't that the essence of strategy?

Once you've made the decision to achieve a specific Civ 5 no other strategy is needed though. THAT is the problem. In Civ 4 there is dynamic choices that need to be made to achieve victory. And the essence of strategy isn't that choice with consequences exists, or opportunity cost.

Strategy: a plan, method, or series of maneuvers or stratagems for obtaining a specific goal or result.

Civ 4 had several ways to achieve the objective of getting a cultural victory. You can get 3 legendary cities through varied means; religion, several buildings, great artists, corporations, national wonders, building culture. Civ 4 has so many things built into one another here too; religions unlock buildings, several of the same buildings allow a national wonder or a cathedral, resources could be traded to generate more culture, certain technologies and wonders could be combined with specialists to generate more culture. There are just so many different ways to achieve 3 legendary cities and not all of them work depending on other things diplomatically, land wise, that happen in your game.
 
You can make poor comparisons to Civ 4 all you want but I still haven't seen such a rote path to victory in Civ 4 like I have in Civ 5.

What level did you play Civ 4 at? The rote Civ 4 strategies were:

Vanilla: Axe rush-->elepult/cavalry then do whatever you want.

BTS: 6-cities-->cavalry/rifle- then do whatever you want.
 
In Civ5 you have to make decisions that have long-term ramifications. Isn't that the essence of strategy?

I think his point is that you make those decisions early and then you are done. There isn't much variety in them. There is no need to make 75% of the buildings because there is no real incentive to.

If you don't want to abuse the AI in war there is very little to do. There were a lot more decisions to make each turn. Some to most people were not fun. Things like managing each tile nearly every turn. Checking the trading screen every turn (I really hated this one). Lots of calculations due to knowing a lot about the mechanics of the game.

Personally I am guessing they have a lot more content they want to add but they were short on time and they want to make some more money on expansion packs.

The additional content should help with given us more to do. Some balance changes to production and tech rates along with building costs can add decisions to determing what you do with each city. These things I don't see being a LONG term problem.

What I do see being a problem is that the AI in 1upt doesn't hold a candle to a human. The only "solution" is to give them insane ammounts of units which ruins fun. This is what I think will be the biggest challenge to making CiV as fun as Civ IV.
 
What level did you play Civ 4 at? The rote Civ 4 strategies were:

Vanilla: Axe rush-->elepult/cavalry then do whatever you want.

BTS: 6-cities-->cavalry/rifle- then do whatever you want.

This is correct, though axe rushes and elepult were still effective in BTS as well.
 
What level did you play Civ 4 at? The rote Civ 4 strategies were:

Vanilla: Axe rush-->elepult/cavalry then do whatever you want.

BTS: 6-cities-->cavalry/rifle- then do whatever you want.

Irrelevant question. You answered yourself, in Civ IV, you could do whatever you wanted at least from some point on. That's the thing. In civ V, that rushing army can then be used to keep steamrolling everyone until auto-win.
 
What level did you play Civ 4 at? The rote Civ 4 strategies were:

Vanilla: Axe rush-->elepult/cavalry then do whatever you want.

BTS: 6-cities-->cavalry/rifle- then do whatever you want.

Problem was this strategy failed a lot. Not only that but there was a lot of micromanagement that would help you win. In CiV there is little brain power required to win. RTS games are fun because the game is constantly demanding your mind perform calculations. For TBS to be fun it needs to have decesions to engage your mind. Otherwise it is work. Same thing happend in IV though once you had your SOD, the game became work to finish it. I want Civ IV decesions with the smaller armies of CiV. And realistically I think they will have to come up with a good way to give the AI and advantage that doesn't involve 100 units.
 
Irrelevant question. You answered yourself, in Civ IV, you could do whatever you wanted at least from some point on. That's the thing.

In CiV you can do whatever you want after conquering half the world too just like you could in CivIV. In either case the easy option is just to keep up the conquest, doesn't mean you have to do it.
 
This is my first post on these boards; however, I have been lurking around here for years. Lately, I've noticed a lot of posters dissatisfied with Civ V. Unfortunately, many of their explanations are vague; i.e. the game has been dumbed-down, it doesn’t feel like civ, etc. The result has been a flurry of responses claiming that players are afraid of change or that they don’t appreciate the game on its merits.

Essentially, those grousing about the game are hurting their case. Vagueness opens them up to attacks and scurrilous allegations--in this case, ascribing motivations that cannot be proven, a red herring and an unfair attack. (Those of you doing this should really stop. It’s an unfair and blanket generalization that cannot possibly account for all the objections to this game. In turn, critics should stop claiming that 2k paid off reviewers. That is just as scurrilous and even conspiratorial, in a nutty kind of way.). I certainly do not like this game because of some alleged fear of change. When Civ IV was released, despite a few minor quibbles, I thought that it was an improvement on Civ III and immediately embraced it. The issue is whether I find the change to be progressive or regressive.

While I cannot speak for everyone who is dissatisfied, I can certainly give an account of my misgivings in order to help improve the dialogue regarding the issue. I have played the game across numerous difficulty levels and accomplished each victory condition at least once, playing a different civ each time for a total of 65 hours. My analysis will be point by point in order to preserve cogency and brevity. It will not be comprehensive. I cannot overstate this last point. There is so much about this game that I do not like. However, I want to shy away from issues of preference (i.e. no unit stacking, simpler mechanics, etc.) and focus on where I think the game has serious and contradictory design shortfalls.

1) Onerous restrictions

The restrictions in this civ (happiness and maintenance costs) are stronger than in past versions (happiness, health, and gold), requiring that the user pay so much attention to these resources at the margins that it renders the game less enjoyable, as the player is forced to contend with tighter restrictions than in past games.

Culture is another issue. Like the other two mechanics, this one prejudices against more cities and expansions because the cost of accruing more social policies doesn’t scale well with empire size.

The result of these mechanics is that they contribute to a severely limited playstyle, as it renders many strategies ineffective, limiting the option of the player, since so much attention must be paid to these very unforgiving game mechanics. For example, fast expansions are now too difficult without a plethora of luxuries nearby.

2) Inconsistent mechanics

Buildings are now rendered useless by many of the games restrictions. Given maintenance costs, the length of building times, and the necessity to maintain constant construction of gold producing and happiness producing structures, a lot of buildings are now useless. To use stables as an example, the time and cost required to get them operational is not worth the trade-off of building extra units without them, especially since this iteration of the franchise allows for fewer units and allows units to carry over xp when upgrading.

Wonders are weaker in this Civ than in any other. While it’s true that every civ game has had its fair share of useless wonders, this one seems to have even weaker ones. Coupled with longer building times, this change makes even less sense.

There are too many units, especially in modern times. You can’t build them all, or even a good fraction of them, when unit maintenance costs and build times are higher, and when the stacking mechanic has been removed.

Conquest has been rendered impossible or extremely slow lacking a genocidal bent. I will pay special attention to this one, as I find it to be one of the most game breaking and poorly conceived mechanics in the entire game. Just like in Civ III, where the costs of overexpansion were too high as a result of the corruption mechanic, there is a strong incentive to raze entire empires because you cannot afford to keep those cities. Annexing the city makes little sense as the cost of a courthouse in terms of maintenance and the happiness hit until that building actually erects is prohibitively expensive. Turning cities into puppets is just as expensive since the AI seems to like massing buildings, which eventually empty your offers in maintenance costs. Even without these mechanisms, massive conquests are too costly, as the happiness hit, even without the occupied city effect, is too restrictive for anything but slow and incremental conquests.

3) Poor A.I.

The AI lacks any challenge in terms of combat tactics.

The behavior of the AI during diplomatic negotiations is mercurial and blind. The player is often treated to bouts of anger for inexplicitly no reason. Concomitantly, the AI also seems to be unphased when the player commits some blatantly hostile acts, such as trading strategic resources to an enemy civilization. In addition, I cannot count the number of times that another civilization has griped about my forces massing on their border when I am trying to attack a mutual enemy that we are both currently engaged in war with on the other side of my ally’s empire or when I only have one unit near their borders, which is exploring. Sometimes I get this and I have nothing near them.

Changing the difficulty does NOT improve the AI. It only gives them greater advantages in terms of production, etc., which you lack. This does nothing to improve the actual mechanics.

4) Inscrutable diplomacy

As suggested in the last section, diplomacy is a mess. In Civ IV, there was a system that allowed the player to measure AI opinion. You had an idea what they didn’t like you doing and who they didn’t like. If you want to keep up with this in Civ V, you literally need to keep notes. This is one of the clearest examples of regression.

There are also fewer options. Techs cannot be traded. Maps cannot be traded. There are no vassal states. The few additions, pacts of cooperation and pacts of secrecy, are difficult to manage, as they lack the aforementioned mechanics to properly monitor them.

Finally, the addition of city states, while a nice and creative addition to the game, are easily manipulated and shallow considering the utterly simplistic mechanics behind them. Give them gold and they like you, showering you with ridiculously high benefits.

5) Inflexible and shallow victory conditions

These are the most problematical aspects of the game. Given the restrictions mentioned in the first section and the requirements for some of these victory conditions, players must now choose a victory at the beginning of the game and stick with it. There is little flexibility to shift toward a cultural victory, for instance, when you conquered your neighbor or overexpanded. I cannot count the number of times in previous Civ games where the flexibility to change strategies to pursue another victory condition was needed, whether it was because I fell behind the tech race, angered too many AIs, or lacked the ability to conquer my foes. The option to change added depth to the game. That is now gone.

Cultural victories are the best illustration of this problem. Build/conquer so that you have more than 5 cities and this path becomes inaccessible due to the very poor scaling of social policy costs relative to the number of cities. Puppeting cities does not help this because, as mentioned, they will bankrupt you.

Diplomatic victories couldn’t be more shallow. In past civ games, the player was required to actually build alliances and improve relations over time. In Civ IV, the AI even kept a memory of your past infractions. Now all that is needed is to buy off the city states before a vote.

Dominance victory conditions are broken due to the already covered restrictions against conquest (happiness, maintenance costs, and poor social policy cost scaling) and the incentivization of genocide. My one dominance victory consisted of a small number of cities destroying every city I conquered, save for the capitols, which is prohibited. At the end of the game, the world had one continent with a few former capitols and my continent that was only 25% inhabited. That looks and feels ridiculous. There should be more options than genocide.

Dominance victories are also too easy given the atrocious AI. I conquered the world with about 10 units in a relatively short time period.

6) Tying it all together: A note on the meta-game

The meta-game is the overall approach to playing. The problem with Civ V isn’t any one mechanic. In isolation, all the aforementioned problems are not game breaking. The problem is that when taken as a whole, these mechanics break the meta-game.

The happiness/gold/low production mechanics coupled with the inflexible victory conditions restrict too many strategies. It sacrifices depth of play for ease of play. When there are fewer options and only a few mechanics to focus intently upon, the game becomes more manageable, more accessible, and more streamlined. The cost is depth. You are forced to utilize only a handful of strategies. Gaming acumen means less now because the aforementioned restrictions don’t allow much room for maneuver. You have to pick a strategy and stick with it. The strategies are simpler (i.e. only need to conquer capitols for domination, shallow diplomatic victory, etc.) This must be done with fewer cities and fewer mechanics to balance. Even all of the options, such as buildings and units, given to you are illusory, as they are either redundant or poorly implemented, a result of trying to use some of the advancements of prior civs, such as buildings that give XP on creation, with a whole new system of mechanics that render such advancements pointless. The sheer sloppiness of design in this game is apparent at every step.

For many Civ veterans, this is boring. We are accustomed to more strategic depth. Sure, accessibility has its advantages. This is obvious. But civilization, for all it’s critical acclaim, was never a very accessible game—it is a niche title appealing to hardcore strat gamers—and I do not understand why the developers want to turn it into one now.

I think there is a lot of truth here, from my perspective at least. I especially agree that the happiness mechanic pretty much forces one to raze everthing if going for a domination or conquest victory. Most of the world is uninhabited by the end of the game, which to me is pretty anti-climactic. The cultural victory notes ring true as well. The AI, is without question probably the biggest issue. I'm still playing though so there are at least some redeemable features here.
 
And realistically I think they will have to come up with a good way to give the AI and advantage that doesn't involve 100 units.

Not too hard actually. They could easily just give the AI a direct bonus to combat strength on the hard difficulties. Deity might actually be a challenge if all those units the AI spammed were 50-100% stronger.

At the very least IMO they need to do this as a temporary measure while they work on making it smarter.
 
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