Wodan
Deity
camel archer: sounds good. Except, I think they get defensive bonuses, right? Well worth mentioning.
Wodan
BTW gj on this whole idea, aelf.
Wodan
BTW gj on this whole idea, aelf.
A comprehensive UU guide
- Thread starter aelf
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aelf
Ashen One
Wodan said:
Hmm... How is this so? I only know it's convenient because you can simply get Nationalism as your free tech from Liberalism. I'm not sure on how to get it through lightbulbing (besides lightbulbing your way to Liberalism).
Wodan said:
I did write on this:
"A major gripe that people have about Musketeers is the fact that they obsolete too quickly since Chemistry is only 'a few techs away'. Their two moves actually help with this, since you can get them to the frontline to be used a lot more quickly compared to normal musketmen. Also, switching to Nationhood and drafting some can help you get enough of them out in time to be used effectively. "
Wodan said:
Thanks. This is worth mentioning.
Oh, Camel Archers don't get defensive bonuses. Unless they changed it in some patch. Haven't played Arabia in a long time.
Wodan
Deity
Yes, or lightbulbing other pre-reqs for Nationhood if you choose another path to gunpowder. e.g., lightbulbing Divine Right and going to Gunpowder through Guilds.aelf said:
Wasn't sure. Anyway, I just checked, they don't.aelf said:
Wodan
Wodan said:
I always thought they had a short lifespan too, and usually don't even build them. However, in my current game I just stumbled on gunpowder pretty early through the "liberalism slingshot." That is, I got liberalism first, and gunpowder was the most expensive tech available. So this might be a good strategy for people with gunpowder-based UUs - getting all the other prerequisites for gunpowder, and then going for liberalism. I wasn't even trying for it - I was basicly researching things I needed for wonders or free techs/GPs. I was the Chinese, and I still had not even gotten to the techs needed for the cho-no-ka's.
Muskets only have a short lifespan if you research the required tech for Chemistry which is engineering.
Here's an example of a person beelining to gunpowder ignoring engineering.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=185748
He goes through CS -> Paper -> Education Route and by the time he has his ottomen UU musket which is around 700AD with the new Warlords patch but he doesn't even have Maces yet LOL nothing can stop that UU FOR A LONG LONG TIME
His economy is fine, he's got Currency, Codes of Law and CS because he went through the educatyion route
Although your if you go through the guilds route you'd be militarily better off but economy wise not so much.
Here's an example of a person beelining to gunpowder ignoring engineering.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=185748
He goes through CS -> Paper -> Education Route and by the time he has his ottomen UU musket which is around 700AD with the new Warlords patch but he doesn't even have Maces yet LOL nothing can stop that UU FOR A LONG LONG TIME
His economy is fine, he's got Currency, Codes of Law and CS because he went through the educatyion route
Although your if you go through the guilds route you'd be militarily better off but economy wise not so much.
My 2 favourite UUs are Keshik and Beserker. Not so much because they are extra good but because they allow for quite a different game than the standard conquest game.
The Keshik comes in on its own on the great plains map. Ressearch towards monotheism. build the Oracle for a free theology and in the meantime research horseback riding instead of iron working. But know you should have 3 or 4 cities building gers. Switch to theocracy and start pumping out Keshiks with _three_ promotions. Make sure very 5th or so Keshik has medic upgrades. Keshiks are not as good swordsman against cities but if they fail an attack they will often withdraw, hence the medics. You should have quite a few by 500BC.
While you start to ravage your neighbours you'll need to research towards currency and construction. If you want to keep the cities you conquer you'll need currency and switch your home cities to produce money. Alternatively raze far away cities and the catapults will come in handy to capture the last cities as the defenders may have better fortifications by the time you get them.
Once your opponents gets longbows your keshiks have reached the end of their usefulness. Either raze the world or have limited conquests that won't ruin your economy and make a beeline for knights and cavalry.
Genghis is imperialistic as well so you should have plenty of great generals along the way.
I find this a nice change from the stacks of mostly swordsman/catapults roaming the fields.
My other favourite is the beserker. Again it has a nice synergy with the trading post. This works well on an archipelago map. pump out an extra workboat and see if you can get the circumnavigation bonus. You may need open borders to get there. Together with a trading post galleys will now move 4. Together with a trading post and feudalism/theocracy galleys will move 5. This will allow you to out manouver any fleet.
Build up a modest empire of 5 or so cities. Make sure you have access to Iron. Build up a modest fleet to start with. Then when you can start pumping out beserkers. Include a few catapults for heavily defended cities and longbows to defend your conquest. Research towards astronomy while you start your conquests. Caravels come in handy to defend you galleys or hunt opponents triremes. If you get galleons the biggest map will turn into a Viking lake.
These strategies work on prince level and are a refreshing change from the swordsman and catapults conquest game.
Gus
The Keshik comes in on its own on the great plains map. Ressearch towards monotheism. build the Oracle for a free theology and in the meantime research horseback riding instead of iron working. But know you should have 3 or 4 cities building gers. Switch to theocracy and start pumping out Keshiks with _three_ promotions. Make sure very 5th or so Keshik has medic upgrades. Keshiks are not as good swordsman against cities but if they fail an attack they will often withdraw, hence the medics. You should have quite a few by 500BC.
While you start to ravage your neighbours you'll need to research towards currency and construction. If you want to keep the cities you conquer you'll need currency and switch your home cities to produce money. Alternatively raze far away cities and the catapults will come in handy to capture the last cities as the defenders may have better fortifications by the time you get them.
Once your opponents gets longbows your keshiks have reached the end of their usefulness. Either raze the world or have limited conquests that won't ruin your economy and make a beeline for knights and cavalry.
Genghis is imperialistic as well so you should have plenty of great generals along the way.
I find this a nice change from the stacks of mostly swordsman/catapults roaming the fields.
My other favourite is the beserker. Again it has a nice synergy with the trading post. This works well on an archipelago map. pump out an extra workboat and see if you can get the circumnavigation bonus. You may need open borders to get there. Together with a trading post galleys will now move 4. Together with a trading post and feudalism/theocracy galleys will move 5. This will allow you to out manouver any fleet.
Build up a modest empire of 5 or so cities. Make sure you have access to Iron. Build up a modest fleet to start with. Then when you can start pumping out beserkers. Include a few catapults for heavily defended cities and longbows to defend your conquest. Research towards astronomy while you start your conquests. Caravels come in handy to defend you galleys or hunt opponents triremes. If you get galleons the biggest map will turn into a Viking lake.
These strategies work on prince level and are a refreshing change from the swordsman and catapults conquest game.
Gus
Wodan
Deity
Nice screenshot but next time read the whole thread before posting.kniteowl said:
Wodan
johnny_rico
one more turn addict
I've played a couple of games with Wang Kon as well, and like the Hwacha as much as the beserker.
The Hwacha is definitely one of the most interesting UU's in the game. Combined with Wang Kon's protective trait (yes, I know the Hwacha is not an archery nor a gunpowder unit), I found myself utilizing military in ways I hadn't before, with much success.
Analyzing the Hwacha for what it is, we see it's a catapult with a +50% bonus to melee units for a cost of 40 hammers. Or an axeman with collateral damage, bombard, and possible withdrawl for five hammers more. Now the Hwacha doesn't receive defensive bonuses like an axeman but hey, who wants to defend with an axeman? There's a reason a few of them can fix any map problem. So, we're going to want to utilize our Hwacha's as offensively as possible.
Via beelining to construction or trading for it (the AI really goes for construction), which I think is preferable, it is possible to be making Hwacha's fairly early in the game. Only the tech is required, the unit is not resource dependant. Early stacks of Hwachas, chariots, and spearman have answers for anything thrown at them. And you can defend your turf with the same combo. This puts a weird flexibility I've not experienced before in the game.
In most games, I like to war (as do most of us). As such, I'm usually looking to acquire my four accuracy catapults, CR axes and swords, an archer per city, and some spears and chariots/HA's thrown in I hope are close to where I need them when I need them. In addition to this variety of units, things can get stingy if you get low on catapults, slow if you had a particularly rough time taking a city and now your axes/swords need time to heal, and/or unbalanced if you lose a few of 'something' in a hurry.
With Korea, your Hwachas become your swords and axes. I wouldn't bother with the melee line until macemen become availalble (exception is before construction). Producing Hwacha's en masse, you'll have all the CR's and accuracy units you'll need, plus collateral damage and possible retreat. Not to mention if things get thin on the front line, you've already built the same troops to protect your backside so the reinforcements are immediately available. And to reiterate, Hwachas are cheap so losing them is no big deal. You should expect to, just make sure that every one you lose is attacking vs. defending.
Some final notes: Once you can add X-bows and pikes to these stacks, they can really take care of themselves. As offensive as one ought to be when playing Korea, X-bows with free drill and CG1 make great additions to your stacks as well as city defenders. It's also nice to upgrade your CR Hwachas to Trebuchets, especially now that they cost more with the 2.08 warlords patch. You should have so many of these things on the maps, you won't have to build many trebs, just upgrade, remember Wang Kon is financial so you'll have gold to burn.
The Hwacha is definitely one of the most interesting UU's in the game. Combined with Wang Kon's protective trait (yes, I know the Hwacha is not an archery nor a gunpowder unit), I found myself utilizing military in ways I hadn't before, with much success.
Analyzing the Hwacha for what it is, we see it's a catapult with a +50% bonus to melee units for a cost of 40 hammers. Or an axeman with collateral damage, bombard, and possible withdrawl for five hammers more. Now the Hwacha doesn't receive defensive bonuses like an axeman but hey, who wants to defend with an axeman? There's a reason a few of them can fix any map problem. So, we're going to want to utilize our Hwacha's as offensively as possible.
Via beelining to construction or trading for it (the AI really goes for construction), which I think is preferable, it is possible to be making Hwacha's fairly early in the game. Only the tech is required, the unit is not resource dependant. Early stacks of Hwachas, chariots, and spearman have answers for anything thrown at them. And you can defend your turf with the same combo. This puts a weird flexibility I've not experienced before in the game.
In most games, I like to war (as do most of us). As such, I'm usually looking to acquire my four accuracy catapults, CR axes and swords, an archer per city, and some spears and chariots/HA's thrown in I hope are close to where I need them when I need them. In addition to this variety of units, things can get stingy if you get low on catapults, slow if you had a particularly rough time taking a city and now your axes/swords need time to heal, and/or unbalanced if you lose a few of 'something' in a hurry.
With Korea, your Hwachas become your swords and axes. I wouldn't bother with the melee line until macemen become availalble (exception is before construction). Producing Hwacha's en masse, you'll have all the CR's and accuracy units you'll need, plus collateral damage and possible retreat. Not to mention if things get thin on the front line, you've already built the same troops to protect your backside so the reinforcements are immediately available. And to reiterate, Hwachas are cheap so losing them is no big deal. You should expect to, just make sure that every one you lose is attacking vs. defending.
Some final notes: Once you can add X-bows and pikes to these stacks, they can really take care of themselves. As offensive as one ought to be when playing Korea, X-bows with free drill and CG1 make great additions to your stacks as well as city defenders. It's also nice to upgrade your CR Hwachas to Trebuchets, especially now that they cost more with the 2.08 warlords patch. You should have so many of these things on the maps, you won't have to build many trebs, just upgrade, remember Wang Kon is financial so you'll have gold to burn.
aelf
Ashen One
Thanks for the info on the Hwacha, johnny. That would also be useful for the next Emperor Challenge, where we might be playing as Wang Kon. I want to write an entry on Berserks incorporating your ideas, but I have to run now so I'll do that tonight or tomorrow.
aelf
Ashen One
Wodan said:
Hmm... interesting. Can you describe a strategy to put this into practice (i.e. when to lightbulb Divine Right, whether you pursue purely the alternative path to Gunpowder until you get it, etc)?
aelf
Ashen One
gusi, thanks for your ideas on the Keshik. They have joined the queue (after johnny's Berserk suggestions).
aelf
Ashen One
Added the entry on Berserks.
Wodan
Deity
Heh heh. I'll go look right away.aelf said:
Wodan
ps I'll do what I can on that strat you asked for.
Wodan
Deity
Those 2 sentences seem to contradict each other. I think the word "impotent" up there is a bit misplaced. The advent of knights renders their advantage impotent, perhaps.aelf said:
On to the Berserks --
Ha. You put that in there just for me, didn't you? Gives me the warm and fuzzies all over.aelf said:
Well summarized.aelf said:
...hope to...aelf said:
Be careful of being too close to the capitol if fighting AI. AIs tend to overstack the capitol and will have a number of units for counterattack from there.aelf said:
Humans in MP will be wary of a sea attack, so watch for that, too. They'll overload on Axes in all coastal cities.
Other comments/suggestions:
Pre-build lots (possibly as many as 7-8 or more) galleys so that your city/military production is ready to build Berserks when they become available. Early Axes with CR1-2 can be (fairly) easily upgraded, also, since Ragnar is Financial and thus a few turns running at low research slider (after achieving the techs for the Berserk of course) should provide the necessary cash to achieve a pretty huge army of Berserks in short order.
Wodan
aelf
Ashen One
Wodan said:
Why? The first is referring to spearmen and the second is referring to the Phalanx. Spearmen can't really fight knights while Phalangites can, that's my point. But I'll change the word "impotent".
Wodan said:Ha. You put that in there just for me, didn't you? Gives me the warm and fuzzies all over.
Lol. You're the archetype of the Berserk hater, certainly
Wodan said:
I'll add those into the already long entry on Berserks
Thanks.EDIT: I don't have enough time now so I'll add them later. Changed the bit on the Phalanx, though.
aelf
Ashen One
Added Wodan's suggestions to the Berserk entry. gusi's ideas on the Keshik will be entered next.
aelf
Ashen One
Added the entry on Keshiks. I also edited the entry on Jaguars to make a distinction between the current Warlords patch and vanilla. I will add the entry on Hwacha next. I think some ideas on how to use Praetorians, Redcoats, Cossacks and Chukonus most effectively (both on vanilla and Warlords) would be good. I don't usually play as the civs with these UUs, so I might not be as familiar with them as some of you.
Flanking 2 will also give Keshiks immunity to first strike, which will help against the drill promoted archers and longbows.
I haven't used a Mongol civ yet, but it seems to me that Keskiks should only be part of an invasion force. They can form part of a mobile wing of the army while a more normal force of axemen, swordsmen and catapults is also used. I would suggest that not more than 50% of the attacking force should be Keshiks unless the enemy is unprepared.
A mobile force moving 2 tiles in enemy culture and regardless of terrain can be formed. To defend the keshiks against spearmen I would give one of my axemen woodsman I and II promotions to allow 2 tile movement through jungles and woods. At that time it is likely there are many woods and jungles around to speed the axeman's movement most times. The keshiks can "hide" under the axeman's skirts if a spearman is around, and the axeman can go spearman hunting.
Here is a novel use for a much ignored unit that pairs up well with the keshik. A purely defensive mobile unit can be made with an explorer (strength 4, ignores terrain costs) who gets a free Guerilla I and Woodsman I and can be promoted another one or two levels. By sending one or two of these explorers with the mobile keshiks, spearmen can be beaten easily as long as the mobile force ends on hills or woods. Think of the explorer as sort of mobile fort and the defensive half or the force while the kesiks are the attacking half. Together they are formidable, and explorers are only 40 hammers. Explorers can't attack but they can get experience and help get a great general. Woe betide anything that tries to dislodge a Woodsman II, Guerilla II explorer sitting on a wooded hill
Strategically the effect of the keshik is to force the enemy to build spearmen as an effective counter. But Mongolia is an agressive civ and so axemen are a cheap and useful counter to spearmen. Spearmen cost more than archers and axemen kill them easier. So a combined force of keshiks and axemen is useful early on and against weak cities. Catapults and swordsmen allow tougher targets such as enemy capitals to be taken at reasonable costs.
Another viable pillaging strategy with keshiks and explorers is to move fast deep in the enemy territory and take out key resources such as copper, iron and horses. By pillaging roads they can break up the enemy communications and the flow of reinforcements. Overall it allows a very differnt form of warfare in this period.
I haven't used a Mongol civ yet, but it seems to me that Keskiks should only be part of an invasion force. They can form part of a mobile wing of the army while a more normal force of axemen, swordsmen and catapults is also used. I would suggest that not more than 50% of the attacking force should be Keshiks unless the enemy is unprepared.
A mobile force moving 2 tiles in enemy culture and regardless of terrain can be formed. To defend the keshiks against spearmen I would give one of my axemen woodsman I and II promotions to allow 2 tile movement through jungles and woods. At that time it is likely there are many woods and jungles around to speed the axeman's movement most times. The keshiks can "hide" under the axeman's skirts if a spearman is around, and the axeman can go spearman hunting.
Here is a novel use for a much ignored unit that pairs up well with the keshik. A purely defensive mobile unit can be made with an explorer (strength 4, ignores terrain costs) who gets a free Guerilla I and Woodsman I and can be promoted another one or two levels. By sending one or two of these explorers with the mobile keshiks, spearmen can be beaten easily as long as the mobile force ends on hills or woods. Think of the explorer as sort of mobile fort and the defensive half or the force while the kesiks are the attacking half. Together they are formidable, and explorers are only 40 hammers. Explorers can't attack but they can get experience and help get a great general. Woe betide anything that tries to dislodge a Woodsman II, Guerilla II explorer sitting on a wooded hill
Strategically the effect of the keshik is to force the enemy to build spearmen as an effective counter. But Mongolia is an agressive civ and so axemen are a cheap and useful counter to spearmen. Spearmen cost more than archers and axemen kill them easier. So a combined force of keshiks and axemen is useful early on and against weak cities. Catapults and swordsmen allow tougher targets such as enemy capitals to be taken at reasonable costs.
Another viable pillaging strategy with keshiks and explorers is to move fast deep in the enemy territory and take out key resources such as copper, iron and horses. By pillaging roads they can break up the enemy communications and the flow of reinforcements. Overall it allows a very differnt form of warfare in this period.
aelf
Ashen One
UncleJJ said:
Wow. Totally forgot about that. Thanks.
UncleJJ said:
Combining horse archers with axes isn't a strategy that is unique to Mongolia. While giving your axes Woodsman I and II to keep in step with Keshiks when moving through forests/jungles is a novel idea, I doubt it's actually useful since it only applies to a particular type of terrain. Keshiks have freedom of movement. Curtailing that advantage in any way seems to defeat their purpose to me. I still stand by the idea that surprise and speed are your best assets, maybe supplemented with withdrawal chances and numbers.
UncleJJ said:
This is a good idea. Thanks. Alas, explorers might come a bit too late. Nevertheless, I shall add this to the entry.
