A Concept to prevent Forests disappearance

[JaeChunDaeSung]

I liked the idea of building Cottages WITHIN forests instead of REMOVING them.

Since later versions involve forced removal of forests to build them, what if a later age tech allowed one to build these improvements WITHOUT removing forests?

 

[crossclayton]

Ok. here are my thoughts, you may not agree but try to see it from this angle...

I agree, historically there were burnings of forests and jungles, but these would have been controlled areas for certain reasons, and cutting of forests in early times would have only given us a small amount of forests vanishing from the globe.

What I am trying to say is that I consider a single tile of forrest to represent a vast expanse of land, almost an entire forrest per tile, not just a square km of forest. So even if early civilisation were to burn off part of it, it wouldnt get rid of the whole tile. The kind of fires that would be capable of burning an entire tile of trees would be one out of control and on a biblical level. Such as the forest fires represented by the random event.

This goes for chopping aswell. I dont think humans were capapble of wiping out entire forrests until we had the machinery and tech we have today. Yes we have been chopping trees down for construction since forever but not in such huge volumes that we are capable of today.

So if we look at it from the angle of a single tile of jungle/trees being a representation of a huge expanse of natural vegetation, then human controlled burnings and men with axes should not wipe out a tile of trees/jungle. To gain any benefits from trees you should have to build an improvement on them witch give you a production bonus and you should not be able to build any improvements that require the trees to be removed. Chopping of entire tree tiles should be moved up the tech tree till around the time we had the machines and other means to wipe out whole country sides of trees and the means to transport all that wood back for use.

 

[climat]

I disagree. Gameplay is always more important than realism.
Yes, one tile represents very large area. But, then, how do you explain resource itself or improvement?
Is the whole area covered with resources or improvement in reality? Absolutely not. According to your point, forests should not be removed by improvements.
Ok, I don't entirely agree with "burning" or "being able to chop from start", but isn't bronze working already "late" (or fit depending on POV) tech to allow chopping?
Not to mention that your idea will harm significantly civs started in forest/jungle area.

 

[Afforess]

Agreeing with Climat as well. Especially since RoM is tailored to snail games, having to wait 500 turns to cut down a forest is... painful. The change to allow burning/clearing does help, and the AI doesn't abuse it, so it's a win-win.

 

[crossclayton]

I disagree. Gameplay is always more important than realism.
Yes, one tile represents very large area. But, then, how do you explain resource itself or improvement?
Is the whole area covered with resources or improvement in reality? Absolutely not. According to your point, forests should not be removed by improvements.
Ok, I don't entirely agree with "burning" or "being able to chop from start", but isn't bronze working already "late" (or fit depending on POV) tech to allow chopping?
Not to mention that your idea will harm significantly civs started in forest/jungle area.

Here is how i explain resources...Each tile of land represents a huge area of "Real" land. If the tile has copper on it, then that is simply representing that somewhere in this area of land is copper. Not that copper is covering miles and miles of land.

So in saying this, just because some burning occurs on a tile doesnt mean the whole tile should be swept from the globe. The same would go for bronze age cutting of trees, i think having population working on a tile of forrest in the city screen is already representing that the tile of forrest is already being used to produce lumber, but not at such a rate as that the entire forest suddenly vanishes from existence. Then later in time we would then have the right machines to accomplish the total removal of an entire forrest, giving your city a huge production boost. The building of a lumber mill on forrest tiles would help boost the gradual production until you can wipe out forrests.

Perhaps there should be alternative improvements for forrests and jungles, ie, instead of villages , villagees in the trees, like Wookies mines and pastures etc. should be able to be built on forrest tiles and jungle because once agian they would be representing that this huge area is covered with forrest but a small part of it has been cleared for the purpose of the resource, but the tile is still significantly covered in vegetation.

 

[Sonereal]

Perhaps there should be alternative improvements for forrests and jungles, ie, instead of villages , villagees in the trees, like Wookies mines and pastures etc. should be able to be built on forrest tiles and jungle because once agian they would be representing that this huge area is covered with forrest but a small part of it has been cleared for the purpose of the resource, but the tile is still significantly covered in vegetation.

From a gameplay POV, that's a bad alternative. Right now, playing on a GEM with 1.73, I have a dozen or so tiles giving me a 85% defensive modifier thanks in part to Village+Hill+Forest. Forests give 50% by themselves.

 

[Kurenin]

Unfortunately in the versions of AND where you could actually build cottages etc in forests, you had no benefit to ever chopping the buggering things down.

You ended up with a map that was entirely forested even in the modern era, not very realistic and also slightly uninteresting.

However, it's really frustrating to have an entirely deforested map due to the AI (this usually happens around 1200 for me).

I suspect the middle ground is an easier way of reforesting (naturally or forced) throughout the mid game, combined with partial clearance from some improvements.

 

[crossclayton]

Well perhaps the bonuses for having a forest tile should be reduced a bit. Lower the defensive bonus and take away any major bonuses that are given. Increase the production bonus for chopping down the forrest so it is more viable to do so and its something you aim towards in the later part of the game.

Maybe make the tile do nothing except give a +1 health and basic food and gold (cant remember what they are if any), until you have the ability to make axes and build a lumber mill on it and then you get a plus 1 production (representing early wood cutting). Limit the defense bonus to 10% and allow bonuses to be built on them so not to disadvantage cities surrounded by vegetation. Move the ability to completley erase a forest tile further up the tech tree so later on it is like an accomplishment to get the ability and recieve a huge bonus for logging an entire forest.

Jungles should work the same but not health bonus, they should -1 health.

I just think that a little to much is being proposed for one tile. Sometimes less is better and a more simplified take on things can actually be better overall.

 

[crossclayton]

This is another thought...

Maybe have a city based building to give a production bonus from forest tiles instead of an improvement. Much like the light house gives +1 food to all sea tiles in the cities range, you could construct a lumber yard in your city to give a +1 production to all forest tiles with in the cities range. Then you can make the decision later to do away with the forest for a one time production bonus to finish off something important in your city, but then you miss out on the long term production from having the forest tile in conjunction with your city's lumber yard.