A Modder's Guide to the Advanced Disease Structure of the Combat Mod

[Toffer90]

What I dislike about spreading by trade route is that you have almost no tools to control which city you are trading with. Most cities are on rivers / coast so you can't just pillage all roads leading from a city. There has to be a tool implented as well that allow you to stop trading with a plagued city.

City trade should in the initial instance of this system have minimal to no impact.
Imo the focus would be to somehow make it spread through the merchant type units activities, those you do have control over.
The trick would be to make it impossible for the player to know that the unit are carries of these diseases.

Idea:
Have many different promotions that to the player all have the same text and icon; the text would just say:
Merchant
-May spread diseases.

There would have to be a lot of promotions as there must be one for every combination of possible diseases it can carry. Clumsy system I must admit.

 

[Thunderbrd]

What I dislike about spreading by trade route is that you have almost no tools to control which city you are trading with. Most cities are on rivers / coast so you can't just pillage all roads leading from a city. There has to be a tool implented as well that allow you to stop trading with a plagued city.

hmm... I do like the idea of being able to have a means by which you can go into a trade screen and de-select a trade route while selecting another available city to establish a trade route with. Would take an additional screen and some reprogramming of trade route setup rules (not too hard) with perhaps some supporting AI so that the AI considers what the player can and tries to take action to quarantine. This could make the trade route system a little too micro-fiddly though and an alternative would be that trade routes TRY to quarantine BUT if they end up with no options aside from trading with cities experiencing an outbreak, they'll consider the best among them to do so on the basis of the route value.

City trade should in the initial instance of this system have minimal to no impact.
Imo the focus would be to somehow make it spread through the merchant type units activities, those you do have control over.
The trick would be to make it impossible for the player to know that the unit are carries of these diseases.

Idea:
Have many different promotions that to the player all have the same text and icon; the text would just say:
Merchant
-May spread diseases.

There would have to be a lot of promotions as there must be one for every combination of possible diseases it can carry. Clumsy system I must admit.

If we're going to satisfy DH's requests, which is one of my top priorities here, then trade would be a heavily impacting aspect of the system at all stages.

I get what you're saying about the promotions... I don't think it would be beneficial to try to hide the diseases, for reasons you mentioned, but perhaps you could set a city to deny entry to any individual of ANY owner with a particular disease by means of a worldview and a judge to establish and remove the restriction? I suppose it probably couldn't stop criminals who would be good at acting like everything is fine just so they can sneak in and spread their leprosy or whatever.

 

[Noriad2]

What I dislike about spreading by trade route is that you have almost no tools to control which city you are trading with. Most cities are on rivers / coast so you can't just pillage all roads leading from a city. There has to be a tool implented as well that allow you to stop trading with a plagued city.

If you look at history, for example the Black Death (there are several documentaries about it on youtube), some authorities *tried* to stop the spread of the Black Death, but they failed.

I think plagues are more a flavour thing than a game feature you have real control over. Until you invent penicillin of course. Historically, they are supposed to be unstoppable. Please note that although people did figure out long ago that diseases are contagious, they didn't figure out what caused them until a strong enough microscope was invented in the 17th century by the Dutchman Anthony van Leeuwenhoek, who discovered the actual existence of bacteria (before then the existence of bacteria was only speculated upon), and people like the Frenchman Louis Pasteur who later discovered that these bacteria were the actual cause of many diseases.

Anyway the disadvantage of being hit by a plague should come with the advantage of being more resistant afterwards. The Black Death during the Middle Ages "only" killed 30-60% of the Europeans. Think of the poor Native Americans who got hit by several plagues shortly after each other, leading to a population reduction of 87% in just a few decades after the 1620s:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...GUES-brought-homes-European-missionaries.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death

P.S. the wikipedia entry says the Black Death originated from certain rodents in Asia. Perhaps use Beavers map resource to found this plague?

 

[Taxman66]

What you're talking about is putting a city under quarantine. A step originally believed to 'help' the city but in fact helped the rest of the nation instead.

I also know that different segments of population within a city itself would have different immunities or protection agaimst the spread of disease due to mumerous reasons including: genetic, location (e.g. those on a hill vs. those by a stagnat water (i.e. proximity to mosquitoes), habits (e.g. monogonus, level of cleanliness... did you know one, of many, reasons jews were persecuted was a that fewer of them were contacted or died from various plagues all due to better hygiene... namely frequent washing of hands before meals, not using clothes from infected/deceased persons, less tolerance of rodents in the home, etc...)

 

[Thunderbrd]

I also know that different segments of population within a city itself would have different immunities or protection agaimst the spread of disease due to mumerous reasons including: genetic, location (e.g. those on a hill vs. those by a stagnat water (i.e. proximity to mosquitoes), habits (e.g. monogonus, level of cleanliness... did you know one, of many, reasons jews were persecuted was a that fewer of them were contacted or died from various plagues all due to better hygiene... namely frequent washing of hands before meals, not using clothes from infected/deceased persons, less tolerance of rodents in the home, etc...)

With my proposal, we can make it so that certain special city factors can make a city more resistant to an outbreak taking place nationally too.

And that matter about the level of cleanliness is exactly what the disease property is representing, that and the degree of care and attention that can be offered by local professionals to isolate those few that come down with a disease before it spreads and help them to overcome it quicker with treatment. THAT's exactly why the disease property would still be a major factor in resisting or avoiding an outbreak even if you have some degree of exposure to the potential to.

 

[Noriad2]

There should be a difference between regular diseases like the common cold, seasonal flue etc on the one hand, and actual plagues on the other. The first one could be modeled with the current disease property, plagues would require special rules.

 

[Thunderbrd]

There should be a difference between regular diseases like the common cold, seasonal flue etc on the one hand, and actual plagues on the other. The first one could be modeled with the current disease property, plagues would require special rules.

Surely there would be no problem with generating a system that allows us to model all sorts of diseases under the same roof? It just means that we need a lot of varying dials and controls to make the disease act much as it did in the real world right?

 

[Harrier]

There should be a difference between regular diseases like the common cold, seasonal flue etc on the one hand, and actual plagues on the other. The first one could be modeled with the current disease property, plagues would require special rules.

Except - I think it was the European common cold that decimated the South Americans after the Spanish invaded.

 

[Thunderbrd]

Except - I think it was the European common cold that decimated the South Americans after the Spanish invaded.

Hell, if that's the case then what we'd see is that the Europeans would have already managed to deal with a lot of outbreaks and had diminished the damage of an outbreak in the process, but did so in the prehistoric era. Long forgotten time.

 

[Harrier]

Hell, if that's the case then what we'd see is that the Europeans would have already managed to deal with a lot of outbreaks and had diminished the damage of an outbreak in the process, but did so in the prehistoric era. Long forgotten time.

What ever bacteria/virus caused the common cold - over millions of years the old world peoples adapted to it and eventually reduced its effect.

When introduced to the new world - the indigenous populations had no defense against it. They had never come into contact with that bacteria/virus. I may be wrong (with the numbers) - but about 70% more people died from the cold than were killed by the Spanish invaders.



Also do not forget, earlier the Europeans suffered a similar (but not as nearly a devastating effect about 40%) with the Black Plague, in medieval times. A virus brought from China on trading ships. The main differance being, it was caused by animals not people - rats.

 

[Thunderbrd]

over millions of years the old world peoples adapted to it and eventually reduced its effect.

The migration to the new world took place a lot more recently than millions of years. Our game timeline should have that event within its span. This discussion really points out that the common cold is no minor bug at all but a supervirus that one side of the world managed to survive through while the other side, when hit, was devastated by it since they'd never experienced it. The game engine design coming together can model that but it might be surprising how lethal a common cold may be established as if we want to make it accurate.

 

[Harrier]

The migration to the new world took place a lot more recently than millions of years. Our game timeline should have that event within its span. This discussion really points out that the common cold is no minor bug at all but a supervirus that one side of the world managed to survive through while the other side, when hit, was devastated by it since they'd never experienced it. The game engine design coming together can model that but it might be surprising how lethal a common cold may be established as if we want to make it accurate.

This also needs to be considered with the future Galatic part of the mod. What may happen if we contact another alien race.

Will we cause a plague on them or them on us.

Some people were worried in the late 60/70s that bringing back rocks from the moon may cause plagues on the Earth.

 

[Thunderbrd]

This also needs to be considered with the future Galatic part of the mod. What may happen if we contact another alien race.

Will we cause a plague on them or them on us.

Yep... war of the worlds sh**! Cool! Prereqs to experience the disease would certainly need to be deeper for interspecies diseases. This is similar to animals/human transfer. Rabies is a disease I want to model as well.

 

[Faustmouse]

I rate it highly unlikely that we catch a plague from aliens or have them bring one to us.
While we can catch diseases from other Mammals or even Birds, I don't remember a plague originating from a plant or fungi disease.
Diseases often need special proteins on the cell surface (or in the cells) to affect an organism. And it is very unlikely that alien share these with us.
It is highly likely however, that advanced alien species could design a virus that wipes out humans completely without affecting other species - like apes, which are closest related to us.
It is also possible to target special ethnic groups of people, which is extremely scary IMO. Designing a virus or bacteria that could kill millions or even billions (like super Ebola IE) in a lab is actually quite easy and cheap...

 

[Thunderbrd]

And it is very unlikely that alien share these with us.

This depends on what you believe about the origin of life itself. If we are even mathematically likely to be quite similar due to being formed from the same base carbon compounds, which is not unimaginable even if life spontaneously sparked into existence in a lightning bolt that struck just the right brew, or if microbial life survived exploding planets to become comets to spread life about the galaxy, or life exists on many planets because of travellers inadvertently bringing microbial life with them that spreads wherever they land as long as the conditions are supportive enough to do so, then with any of these scenarios which could well be the case, we could easily find our species compatible for exploitation by exo-terrestrial hostile microbes.

There's a very good chance that life on Earth didn't start here. And if it did, then it could've started the same way on other planets and be manifest very similarly.

I don't remember a plague originating from a plant or fungi disease.

This does happen. Consider that most herbs are medicinal because they developed methods to combat microbial attack that happen to be chemically valid when applied to our systems, whether ingested or applied topically. Nicotine, just as one example which isn't a perfect one to the statement, is manufactured by tobacco purely to kill insects that would otherwise infest them. Plants are part of the microbial world of warfare as well. And sometimes its the plants themselves that can make us sick... allergies anyone?

 

[tmv]

There is a big difference between poison and disease - poisons often work almost completely on the chemical level, there is little biology about it (only in the effects - take CO, for example, which just "steals" oxygen to become CO²).

And even if life didn't start on earth, their relationship to us is so distant even compared to plants that it shouldn't matter.

 

[Faustmouse]

As tmv said. Just take the seperation of eukaryotes and prokaryotes, which didn't happen too long ago. But a virus that attacks a bacterium has no effect on us. And in the life-came-here-on-a-comet-scenario, the split between life on earth and aliens happened a few billion years before that.

Allergies are also completely different. But we could be allergic to alien plant-life as well.

The real question here would be: Are diseases still relevant when we get in direct (physical) contact with alien life? Sure there is a chance that as I write this, there are aliens approaching our planet, but this chance is extermely small. It is much more likely that the first alien-life we encounter is primitive, so WE would be the party that travels there. If we assume there is no alien life in our solar system, it would take humans at least 50 years to get there (probably much longer). Within 50 years, it is predicted to develope smart medicine, iE Nanobots, that have the potential to cure every transmittable disease.

 

[Thunderbrd]

As tmv said. Just take the seperation of eukaryotes and prokaryotes, which didn't happen too long ago. But a virus that attacks a bacterium has no effect on us. And in the life-came-here-on-a-comet-scenario, the split between life on earth and aliens happened a few billion years before that.

We may also find that life tends to evolve down similar pathways as a matter of chaos theory. It may be mathematically 'natural' for a creature like a deer or a human to emerge from the pool of life that does what it does naturally over time, seeking new forms of physical expression and finding limited numbers of highly successful expressions, all for similar reasons. The same may happen at a fundamental microbial level. AKA, simply because life IS life, it is all more closely related, wherever it may be found, than we may imagine now from our position of lacking observable phenomenon at this time regarding the subject.

The fact that Native Americans were decimated by something the rest of the world sniffles at is one of those things that may end up becoming an even more powerful effect when the races of previously isolated planets meet and mingle.

The real question here would be: Are diseases still relevant when we get in direct (physical) contact with alien life? Sure there is a chance that as I write this, there are aliens approaching our planet, but this chance is extermely small. It is much more likely that the first alien-life we encounter is primitive, so WE would be the party that travels there. If we assume there is no alien life in our solar system, it would take humans at least 50 years to get there (probably much longer). Within 50 years, it is predicted to develope smart medicine, iE Nanobots, that have the potential to cure every transmittable disease.

Whether we have amazing medical technologies or not, we're going to need an equally amazing answer to our current fabric of economic Darwinism to ensure that all have access to the highest level of care. The societal elites on Earth currently would prefer that we were about 80% less populated and once we have truly replaced most professions with automated capabilities, which we are currently racing to achieve, the purpose of maintaining such huge herds of human beings as we currently do is going to be gone, leaving the vast majority of us incapable of finding employment to support ourselves at all, let alone provide ourselves with any level of medical care whatsoever. So while we may be able to ensure the absolute longevity, perhaps even indefinitely, for the ultra rich, the rest of us will likely see an absolute nose dive in life expectancy and certainly would not see access to such 'smart medicine' technologies, not unless we begin to rapidly colonize space and give ourselves another way to relieve the planet of its burden. But before even then, the elites would likely wish to first refine our species genomically and eliminate those lines that do not prove capable of surviving in a much more limited environment of economic access. AKA, we're probably about to be starved off here folks. Those that survive the next 100 years will inherit the technologies to enable effective immortality. The rest of us may find that in a more spiritual sense if we're lucky enough that some religions are true.

Also, to respond to one point you made in there more directly:

Sure there is a chance that as I write this, there are aliens approaching our planet, but this chance is extermely small.

My worldview states that it is not unlikely but rather that 'they' have been here all along and we are silly apes who merely THINK, because that's what they want us to think, that we are a species vastly isolated from the rest of the galaxy. Truth is, we've been little more than an owned colony since our origins. That's the power of propaganda for ya.

 

[Faustmouse]

We may also find that life tends to evolve down similar pathways as a matter of chaos theory.

While I agree that something like a deer exists somewhere in the universe (because it is HUGE), the chances are tiny we ever will find it. Even if it would share 99,9% of the genetic code of our deers, it might be immune to deer-diseases because of tiny differences in the code. Also, everything that has driven us here to live on the world that we know are small chances, and the chance that they all happened to another world in the same timescale is just... unimaginable small.

The fact that Native Americans were decimated by something the rest of the world sniffles at is one of those things that may end up becoming an even more powerful effect when the races of previously isolated planets meet and mingle.

I don't know excactly when native americans and europeans split up, but I'd guess 50k years. That's almost nothing. If we assume life came to existence 3 billion years ago and split, then we have a lot of time for evolution to diverse us.

 

[Thunderbrd]

I don't know excactly when native americans and europeans split up, but I'd guess 50k years. That's almost nothing. If we assume life came to existence 3 billion years ago and split, then we have a lot of time for evolution to diverse us.

Sure, but life in all its forms follows similar divisions of fundamental chemical processing methods and mechanisms, all of which diseases and microbes in their infinite evolutionary expressions, have found ways to exploit. Life, itself, operating on carbon compounds, all follows a similar coding structure. As any hacker knows, just knowing a system operates on binary is enough for some bugs to attack it.