A programmer’s perspective on Civ VI

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Hescumeth, Nov 2, 2016.

  1. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond King

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    Looks like everyone is a programmer on this forum. And as programmers you tend to defend Firaxis programmers.

    There's no point in having a discussion here.
     
  2. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    You could reverse the first line of this post and it would be equally-valid.

    Do you not like to hear programmers' opinions on programming? Why not?
     
  3. Zuizgond

    Zuizgond King

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    As you share the same job, you tend to protect their point of view. Maybe you have too much pressure, maybe you have unrealistic deadlines or too low budget. So you think it's still a good job to release a product in a nearly acceptable state considering all the constraints you had during development.

    But in the end, the customer doesn't care about it. He just wants to buy a finished product, which is normal. The complaints are not addressed against the developers specifically, but against Firaxis in general and their business plan.

    TL:DR You seem to take it personally.
     
  4. SammyKhalifa

    SammyKhalifa Deity

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    . . . or maybe they just have a more realistic perspective on things. I like to hear every angle on this to better understand what's going on.
     
  5. avguy2

    avguy2 Chieftain

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    OP is right about the fact that they knew about the bugs and issues with balance and everything. How could they not be aware? Their list was simply too long to fix everything so they got it to a state where it's technically playble, no crashes etc. and that has to do for now. And strangely enough, for a huge part of players - and reviewers - it does.

    But let's be honest, we're not talking about some minor flaws and bugs that got overlooked. We're talking about integral game features that need fixing. Is that complicted and time consuming? I bet. That doesn't change the facts, obviously a late beta is what they're selling (at best). If they needed more time to finish the game they should've taken more time. Are we suckers for pre-ordering? Guess so. The game is not finished and to me that is pretty sad. Not what I paid for! It's not much consolation that other Civ games got horrible releases, too.

    But hey, when I read the comments of folks jumping in to defend this release strategy I can't blame Firaxis. What they're doing works.
     
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  6. idjit

    idjit Chieftain

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    Game crashes to desktop alla time, especially when you try and exit the game. Game crashes when taking enemy cities late game and sometimes during the AI's turn.
     
  7. Mustakrakish

    Mustakrakish In 'Node' We Trust

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    Yeah, I'm a programmer too and um... yeah, there are bugs you know. They're definitely there and um... the code... well the code is there too, you know? Bugs too, but the most important thing right now is that the code is definitely there. Um... what else? Oh, yeah! I a civ player since civ II !
     
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  8. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    I know all about bugs. And programming. I'm a programmer, the best programmer, everyone knows that, just ask them. The best. Trust me on this. Not like China. With all the programming I've done I know all about the bugs. There are bugs because Firaxis, like China, aint the best. They're small fish, making up global warming. They dont knowing anything about programming or bugs. When I'm in charge I'll arrest them for that. You can't trust them, crooked Firaxis. You can trust me. I know that with programming we can get rid of bugs. With the best programming. That's what I'll do, believe me, just ask them. I've done it tons of time before, with the best code.
     
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  9. idjit

    idjit Chieftain

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    Well, it's possible your cities grew, or you somehow got suzerain status with a city state that adds a buff to unit building. Or a mouse farted in Siberia.
     
  10. Ravenwild

    Ravenwild Chieftain

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    ITT programmers and people who are jealous they are not programmers. :queen:
     
  11. idjit

    idjit Chieftain

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    I've been a software engineer for over two decades now.

    As I have stated in a thread I posted a week ago, I have had jobs where I would've been fired outright if I had released software even close to this state. A major product release that people paid a lot of money for on top of that? I'd never work again..

    In some ways, more people on a project makes things harder, yes. Interdisciplinary skill and coordination are a nightmare. But at the same time, you also have many more pairs of eyeballs looking at stuff. There is simply no way they could be smart enough to work on a project like this and yet be so naive as to miss the glaring stuff. (why did I lose my last deity game? It is a mystery! Oh, wait, I can do one more time and look at the rankings. K.)

    No, I point my finger squarely at the suits cracking the deadline whip on the techs.

    The source of the problem, at its heart, is not technical.

    It is political.

    Gotta get that ROI, make shareholders happy, bolster the Brand Recognition and grind interns into dust so bonuses can be collected. Etc, etc, etc, ad-nauseum, blah, blah, blah.
     
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  12. Larsenex

    Larsenex King

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    ^^^ This is entirely your opinion and you are likely in the minority. For me the game is finished and very enjoyable. To make such exaggerations is silly. Clearly the 1000's of folks playing the game and continuing to play the game are too stupid to know the game is not finished (if we follow your statements).
     
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  13. Kwami

    Kwami Deity

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    Eh, there's nothing to be jealous about. Programming is just a thing to do. There are other things to do, too.
     
  14. Gorbles

    Gorbles Load Balanced

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    I've taken nothing personally, but that's an amusing projection there.

    This is a thread made to offer a programmer's perspective. This thread isn't to talk about what the customer does or doesn't care about. You have every other thread in the subforum for that :D

    You as a customer / non-programmer tend to protect customer / non-programmer points of view. Everyone has bias, it's unavoidable. But that isn't a point in of itself. It's not an argument. It doesn't change anything I or anyone else has said.

    While I completely agree a lot of this comes down to management (particularly in the games development industry), I'm not sure it's fair to say you would've been fired for a release in a similar state in other jobs. Other jobs come with different demographics, different pressure points, and so forth.

    Certainly there's no such thing as a bug-free release in any project (short of, say, realtime operating systems for critical systems like nuclear power plants), so undoubtably jobs you have worked on will have shipped with issues. The questions are "what issues" and "what severity is acceptable". Which is unfortunately where management gets involved (more than the competence of the developers).

    But then again without management you'd have too many technical folks and not enough of a project plan. It's just a shame a good balance is rarely struck between the two sides.
     
  15. Kolyana

    Kolyana Czarina

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    I'm going to throw in with Gorbles and the other here who are saying that the original post citing "a programmers perspective" is all fine and all, bbut it also highlights how little the programmer in question understands the software development life cycle of a project like this. I also work with a small team, and even I understand the behemoth that is this application and the intrinsic complications of a tight deadline, budget, cross discipline team, shifting requirements, scope creep, testing cycle, and an ever looming deadline.

    I've been a programmer, project manager, technical director, and CTO within the software development industry, sometimes small projects, often multi-million dollar applications, and even with a smaller team it's painfully obvious that the larger the team, the more cross-discipline, the more a project is fractured across different developers, the harder it is to manage and come up with a perfect product. I'd argue it's impossible and bugs are inevitable.

    The testing cycle alone - which also includes identifying, prioritizing, fixing, retesting, all within the same timeline and budget - is monumental.

    If a true programmer really had anything to say about this title, it would be "yeah, there are bugs, not surprising really."

    Everything in the original post that tries to talk "conclusions" smacks of naivety.
     
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  16. johnnybaseball

    johnnybaseball Chieftain

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    I have no programming knowledge and I would submit that (a) video games have always had bugs, and that as a customer, my expectation is a game that works, but not one that has no bugs. Some of the best games ever have bugs. Some of them are even charming. (B) Most people are not judging the game based on whether Deity is difficult for the best players to beat. For most, that level is insanely challenging. You guys seem to know everything about all the mechanics in the game, but most people are just playing and learning as they go, hovering over icons to see what each tech gives them, having merely a vague idea of what comes next in tech or civics, and they just make decisions as they go along, without being super strategic or even thinking too hard about it ... and the game is perfectly acceptable if you play that way, and that's how most players play, so that's what matters most.
     
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  17. KidHorn

    KidHorn Chieftain

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    Another programmer here. I've been doing it since 1990 or so.

    None of us know squat unless we've worked on the source code and been at the meetings. We can't even say for sure if the bugs are in Firaxis code. Maybe they use a 3rd party library that has bugs. It doesn't sound like the bugs should be hard to fix. Assuming they can reproduce them. But, we can only guess.

    I haven't run into any bugs as far as I can tell. I think they did a good job.
     
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  18. avguy2

    avguy2 Chieftain

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    Just for the record, I didn't call anyone stupid. But what are you trying to say with your post anyway? The fact that a lot of people seem to be enjoying the game doesn't mean they're thinking the game is finished. I don't think anyone on here believes that, you included. (But even if 1000s of people did say the game actually is finished that wouldn't prove anything. The majority opinion isn't always right!)

    Again, I'm trying to make my point so you can understand what I'm saying: I'm not talking about minor bugs and glitches. Every project this size will have those. There are obvious issues with basically all critical game mechanics (and that's not even considering the poor UI design) that will need a lot of work to get fixed. You don't even have to be a programmer to see that. And you surely don't have to take a look at the code. The game is unfinished! (If you don't believe me just browse this forum or, I don't know, play a bit Civ VI.) They have published the game anyway, knowing they would need a lot more time to work on those issues. And, of course, they also knew they could get away with it (as they always do). I personally don't think that's ok.
     
  19. Iron Angel

    Iron Angel Classified

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    Yay! I found a thread full of programmers. And programmers that is saying the game is fine, at that.
    To all of you that are defending the code and how good condition the game is in right now. Please download my attached save file and give it a go.

    This was my first game of CiVI. There are two cities at your disposal, ready to be taken over by you. The Arabian city 'Halab' and the city state 'Lisbon'.
    Tell me how it goes. And then tell me if this would classify as game-breaking or "easy to see past".
    I am not alone with this issue.

    The game is fun. But to say that it is a solid piece of programming beauty is wrong.

    Disclaimer: All of my opinions are from a non-programming consumer, I just want to play, point of view.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Ravenwild

    Ravenwild Chieftain

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    No one is saying the game doesn't have bugs or is perfect. It's just people have really unrealistic expectations for a game of this complexity to run "perfectly" right out of the gate. It's just posts along the lines of "man the programmers are dumb..." made by people who have no idea what they are talking about. Just trying to provide some perspective here.
     
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