A quick practice session with trading and bargaining

[mad-bax]

Thanks for the clarification about renegotiation.

I also noticed that once I had renegotiated peace with a particular CIV it was then impossible to negotiate a military alliance with anyone else against that CIV. I know it sounds obvious.

 

[Qitai]

You can't negotiate a MA against anyone none of you is at war with. One of the party must be at war with the thrid party.

 

[AlanH]

Maps and contact are clearly very powerful trading counters in the early game.

If either trading party has Map Making then both parties can buy or sell maps.

Writing seems to behave differently. It seems Writing allows me to sell my contacts, but I can't buy contacts from another civ until she has Writing. I guess she can't write down their phone numbers yet. So if I want new contacts from my new friend I first have to sell her Writing.

Fair enough, but it turns out that she can't then tell me about her contacts in the same turn, so I can't trade for them this time around. If I wait until the next turn I run the risk that one of my competitors will get her contacts first and reap enormous potential advantage. All I get from the deal is the sale of Writing.

Has anyone else seen this?

 

[mad-bax]

Originally posted by Qitai
You can't negotiate a MA against anyone none of you is at war with. One of the party must be at war with the thrid party.

Thanks. 'tis as I expected.

 

[Qitai]

Originally posted by AlanH
It seems Writing allows me to sell my contacts, but I can't buy contacts from another civ until she has Writing.

I don't think this is true but I can't seems to recall if I had trade communication from a civ without writing. But I am SURE I have sold my contacts while not having writing.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Trading contacts works the same way as trading maps and mapmaking. One of you must have writing to trade contacts. It is possible she didn't know anybody that you didn't, until the next turn, and/or had traded for contacts via a third party.

 

[King Of America]

Great idea Moonsinger!

Bottom line: with slider unchanged, I have all techs, everyone's world map except Persia, 898 gold and am up 5 per turn.

Play-by-play:

Trade 1: England (only she has Map Making)
My World Map (WM) + 425 g + 13 gpt for her Map Making and Territory Map (TM)

Trade 2: Zulu (only he has Math butI trade for Lit first, mistakenmly)
Map Making for Contact with Bab + Lit + TM

Trade 3: Zulu:
WM for WM

Trade 4; (oh yeah, math!) Zulu
WM + 8 gpt + 300 g. for Math

Trade 5: Japan (all they have id Phil)
Math for Phil + WM + 1 g.

Trade 6: Rome
Math for Cont. Greeks + TM

Trade 7: Rome
WM for Code of Laws and WM

Trade 8: Greeks (unknown and uneducated)
TM for TM + 1 g

Trade 9: Greeks
WM for WM + 49

Trade 10: India
Con. Greeks + Code of Laws for WM

Trade 11: Egypt
TM for WM

Trade 12: Babylon
TM for TM

Trade 13: babylon
WM for Ploytheism + WM + 30

2 hour break to watch The Matrix with my wife.

Trade 14: Zulu
Con. Greeks + WM for 300 g

Trade 15: Russia
Con Greeks + Code of Laws for WM + 21g

Trade 16: England (I want money)
WM + Lit + Math for WM + 446 gold

What about the Persians--must've forgotten them after I got Polythesim from Babylon and knew they had no techs for me...sheesh that's what happens when you take the blue pill instead of the red one...

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
If I want to, I could establish embassies in every civ and sign a ROP, and get everyone polite.

How do people decide when to invest in embassies? Rarely, the computer will establish an embassy with me, I think, but mostly I'll end up doing it sooner or later. Is it better to do it early, when the price is low (and the improvement in relations gives better deals from that point forward), or later, because the cash conserved is important for enabling other deals?

 

[Moonsinger]

I'm really glad that I started this exercise before playing the GOTM20. I have been doing the 40 turns research since the dawn of my civilization and I have been usually at tech parity or trailing the tech leader by just 1 tech at any given year. I will post the complete details of all my trades from the beginning to the end of my GOTM20 in the spoiler thread when Cracker says ok.

 

[cracker]

Without posting any spoiler information, I can tell yo all that Moonsinger had absolutely no knowledge of what Gotm20-Spain would look like but this thread an the trading and training concepts that it embodies could not be more perfectly matched with the game designe concepts for Gotm20.

Any player that did not take the time to read this thread and practice the basic trading concepts would be at severe disadvantage in most Deity level game situations.

Cantante de la luna con la mente hermosa

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by cracker
Without posting any spoiler information, I can tell yo all that Moonsinger had absolutely no knowledge of what Gotm20-Spain would look like but this thread an the trading and training concepts that it embodies could not be more perfectly matched with the game designe concepts for Gotm20.

Any player that did not take the time to read this thread and practice the basic trading concepts would be at severe disadvantage in most Deity level game situations.

For the record, I'm not a member of the GOTM staffs and I had absolutely no knowledge of the GOTM20 before June 1st of 2003. Therefore, it was just simply a coincidence that it happens to be a perfect match. Sometimes, I do wonder if I actually have ESP.

Cantante de la luna con la mente hermosa

Gracias, usted es muy amable.

 

[Ebomb808]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ


How do people decide when to invest in embassies? Rarely, the computer will establish an embassy with me, I think, but mostly I'll end up doing it sooner or later. Is it better to do it early, when the price is low (and the improvement in relations gives better deals from that point forward), or later, because the cash conserved is important for enabling other deals?

I think this completely depends on whether you want to form alliances in a war you start, or whether you are so weak you would need an alliance to fend off a strong attacker. If neither situation applies, i probably would hold off on the embassy until it does or if you need to investigate a wonder building city. 50-100 gold or more might be better served elsewhere

 

[DaviddesJ]

Well, it sounds like if you're stronger than your opponents, you might want to build an embassy and then get the gold back by making a ROP with them (at least, the ones that are farther away). But if you're in the usual position of being behind (once you are stronger the game is more or less over) then this wouldn't apply.

But what I was also thinking of is that building an embassy supposedly improves your diplomatic standing with that target, so it might be worthwhile to build it just to get better deals, and pay for itself that way. Or, similarly, I think having a ROP improves relations, so you could build the embassy in order to make the ROP in order to improve relations with the target (particularly if the country is far away so the ROP has no risk). Another possibility is that if two AIs get into a war, then they will often pay you to join one side or the other, which might be essentially free gold if you pick the "right" side, but you only have the opportunity (or even the knowledge of the opportunity) if you have the embassy.

BTW, I'm often surprised/confused by which civs will take gpt in deals with me, and which won't. Anyone have ideas on how to predict/control this?

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ
But what I was also thinking of is that building an embassy supposedly improves your diplomatic standing with that target, so it might be worthwhile to build it just to get better deals, and pay for itself that way. Or, similarly, I think having a ROP improves relations, so you could build the embassy in order to make the ROP in order to improve relations with the target (particularly if the country is far away so the ROP has no risk).

I seem to recall seeing several posts here and elsewhere indicting that having an embassy makes no difference to the trading value of deals you can make or AI attitudes.

BTW, I'm often surprised/confused by which civs will take gpt in deals with me, and which won't. Anyone have ideas on how to predict/control this?

When your trusy advisor says "They'd never ..." then either they have no spare gpt or you've welshed on a 20 turn deal at some time and blotted your escutcheon. If one will and another won't then it's probably the former. Until the Industrial era they've seldom got spare gpt to give you. If they'v got gpt but aren't prepared to pay it then you'll get "They'd be insulted .. " or one of the lesser negative responses.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by AlanH

I seem to recall seeing several posts here and elsewhere indicting that having an embassy makes no difference to the trading value of deals you can make or AI attitudes.

The AI Attitude article says the opposite:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_ai_attitude.shtml

I've personally seen it make a difference, but in both directions! I.e., sometimes I establish an embassy and then the price of what I want goes up. Usually the change is small, though.

When your trusy advisor says "They'd never ..." then either they have no spare gpt or you've welshed on a 20 turn deal at some time and blotted your escutcheon. If one will and another won't then it's probably the former. Until the Industrial era they've seldom got spare gpt to give you. If they'v got gpt but aren't prepared to pay it then you'll get "They'd be insulted .. " or one of the lesser negative responses.

I'm not talking about this at all. I'm talking about whether they will accept gpt from you instead of cash up front (and how much). Often some civs will take up to 10 gpt (for example), at a 17:1 or 18:1 ratio (i.e., if you give them 10 gpt you can reduce the amount you have to pay now by 170 gold). But other civs won't take that: they don't say "They'd never", they just don't add any value to the deal when you throw in gpt. The question is what factors affect/determine this. It happens even when I've treated them all the same, and they are all "polite".

As for getting gpt from the other civs, sometimes I give them gpt and then later I want to make another deal and get them to pay me gpt. So I know they have income, I just gave it to them! But I think maybe it doesn't update their knowledge of their income level, until their turn comes.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ


The AI Attitude article says the opposite:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3acad_ai_attitude.shtml

I've personally seen it make a difference, but in both directions! I.e., sometimes I establish an embassy and then the price of what I want goes up. Usually the change is small, though.

Hmmm. The difference stated there is -2. Does that mean that it will only make a significant difference if you are 1 point above one of the thresholds between gracious/polite/cautious/annoyed/furious?

I'm not talking about this at all. I'm talking about whether they will accept gpt from you instead of cash up front (and how much). Often some civs will take up to 10 gpt (for example), at a 17:1 or 18:1 ratio (i.e., if you give them 10 gpt you can reduce the amount you have to pay now by 170 gold). But other civs won't take that: they don't say "They'd never", they just don't add any value to the deal when you throw in gpt. The question is what factors affect/determine this. It happens even when I've treated them all the same, and they are all "polite".

Sorry for my misunderstanding. I've never seen this situation. It sounds ominous - like they don't want to do a gpt deal with you because they expect to break it real soon now

As for getting gpt from the other civs, sometimes I give them gpt and then later I want to make another deal and get them to pay me gpt. So I know they have income, I just gave it to them! But I think maybe it doesn't update their knowledge of their income level, until their turn comes.

... or maybe they immediately absorb your payment into their research funding and it is no longer available for gpt deals?

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by AlanH
... or maybe they immediately absorb your payment into their research funding and it is no longer available for gpt deals?

I don't think they can change their research level until their turn. But it would be possible to test this (e.g., in a test game where you have plenty of money, use investigate city to see their research funding level, then give them some gpt, then do investigate city again).

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by DaviddesJ


I don't think they can change their research level until their turn. But it would be possible to test this (e.g., in a test game where you have plenty of money, use investigate city to see their research funding level, then give them some gpt, then do investigate city again).

If two civs in succession wanted to do deals with me between turns I think I would wait until my turn came to negotiate. But if I did do the deals on the fly, I think I'd want to decide whether to give gpt on the second deal that I'd received from the first, even if I hadn't actually changed my slider yet. But you're probably right, the AI most likely doesn't have this flexibility.

I don't think that test would help, unfortunately, as you only see the way the civ distributes that city's gpt output, not what happens to income from other civs.

 

[DaviddesJ]

Originally posted by AlanH

I don't think that test would help, unfortunately, as you only see the way the civ distributes that city's gpt output, not what happens to income from other civs.

The "investigate city" option shows you the allocation of commerce to research/gold/entertainment, which is the same in all cities of a civilization. Income from other civs always goes directly into gold; it doesn't get "allocated" between research, gold, and entertainment.

 

[Moonsinger]

DaviddesJ:

I really don't know why the AIs are so unpredictable with the gpt deal. For example: in one of my game, my reputation was crystal clear (as usual in most of my games) and I tried to offer Electronic to France for as little as 1 gpt and they refused. Of course, since other civs were gladly paying me zillion gpt for my Electronic, I knew for sure that my reputation was crystal clear. So I decided to leave France alone and ended my turn. Suddently France contacted me and offered me 73 gpt for my Electronic at the starting of my next turn. What was up with that? A few nano-second ago, she didn't want to pay 1 gpt then a turn later, she was willing to pay 73 gpt. What had caused her heart to rotate 180 degree within 1 turn, I don't really know.