A quick practice session with trading and bargaining

[Greebley]

Well I did ok on Moonsingers example, but see I could have done much better in the game I was playing. Thanks for the analyses, it will really help me do better in the future.

I do have 2 questions.

I have seen mention of the fact that holding back contact helps in trading. I am not completely sure how this works however.

a) For example, if Rome (just choosing a random civ for the example) has an exclusive tech and he knows 2 civs and I know 5, is the tech cheaper for me (compared to both of us knowing 5?).

b) Or is it because If I bought a tech from someone that Rome does not know, and then sell to Rome, the amount I get is more because he is paying for the "exclusive" price instead of the price he would give me with another civ knowing it?

c) I guess the other case would be if Rome only knew one other civ and both Rome and the other civ had a tech, then that tech would be cheaper than if he knew 4 other civs with only one knowing the tech.

I am guessing that b and c are true, but a is not. Is that correct?

---------------

My second question is that if you are trying the suicide galley "meet the other continent first" gambit, then is it best to try to save as much cash is possible and NOT buy techs from the civs you know? It would mean you are further behind, but have more cash for purchases. I would assume some purchases are worthwhile (if you buy nothing and the gambit fails you would be in deep trouble). Are there techs it is worth getting even if it means you might be poorer when you meet (currency perhaps?)

 

[Bamspeedy]

If he is the only one in the world with that tech, he has a monopoly on it, so it doesn't matter. However, if 2 civs have it, then the person who has contact with both civs would get it cheaper than the person who only knew one of the civs.

If there are 5 other civs on the other side of the world, that your neighbors don't know, you could buy techs from the other side of the world @4th-6th civ prices (very cheap) and then sell it to all your neighbors at monopoly prices. The perfect situation would be where each side of the world goes down different branches of the tech tree, so you can continually trade back and forth.

But I like swapping contacts. They give each other big discounts so they trade back and forth more frequently, and I can more often get techs @9th or @10th civ prices, and it makes tech speed faster. But I only recommend this if you have a decent empire (economically speaking-making hundreds of gold/turn) to easily keep buying techs.

 

[Kemal]

Nice, a trading excercise, one of my favourite aspects of the game, thanks for putting this up Moonsinger.

This is how I traded:

Bought contact with Babylonians from Egypt for 32.

Got Mapmaking from the English for 627g and WM.

Got Mathematics and Literature from Zululand for Mapmaking, WM, and 60g.

Traded Mapmaking and 52 gold with Rome for Contact with Greece, WM and Philosophy.

Traded Mysticism, IW and Horseback Riding with Greece for WM and 50g.

Traded Mapmaking, contact with Greece and 44g with Persia for CoL and WM.

Traded CoL, Contact with Greece, Territory Map and 4g with india for polytheism and WM.

Traded CoL with Zululand for WM and 60g.

Traded Mapmaking with japan for 1g and WM.

Traded CoL with Russia for WM and 21g.

Traded CoL with Egypt for WM and 33g.

Traded mapmaking and 21g with Babylon for WM.

Signed ROP with England and traded Mathematics, Literature and WM for 662g.

Traded WM with Persia for 83g.

Traded WM with Rome for 52g.

Traded WM with india for 4g.

traded WM with Babylon for 23g.

End result: 921g and all techs, with England currently at tech parity, Persia and Zululand 1 tech behind, India, Rome and Babylon 2, Japan and Russia 4, Egypt 5 and Greece 6.

Main focus was to get as much gold back from England as possible, thus refraining from selling mathematics and literature to anyone before selling it to England, so their value was as high as possible, and get as much of the world map as possible for the other trade commodities available.

Normally, I'd probably also have given away the techs the other civs still possess to speed up the tech pace, or wait just a few turns to get some additional gold they might earn during those turns.

I totally forgot about the possibility to renegotiate peace, usually I'm in no position to do so myself in my games, so I didn't even think about using it to gain some extra coin.

 

[ltcoljt]

Trading?



You mean you can trade in this game?

 

[Bremp]

Two months ago I was playing a Deity game when I got this position:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/babylon_deity_550bc.sav

With only 4 gold and one new contact you must get all the ancient techs and collect all the gold from the AI.

I hope you enjoy it!
This is Civ3 v1.29, standard map, archipelago, 7 rivals.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
It looks like I'm getting a big pay off for starting this thread.

I think we all are, Moonsinger. Thanks for your great idea. SirPleb's deals look superb. as ever.

@SirPleb: I went for contact with Babylon first, as this was cheaper and there was a good chance they knew Greece so the high price of Greece would come down. Was there a specific reason for going for contact w. Greece first in your sequence?

I've tried using peace renegotiation as a bargaining counter in a couple of test situations, and noticed that you can sometimes get value for it when your Foreign advisor says our military strength is about equal, sometimes not. So it seems you do have to use a more precise measurement of the power histograph lines to discover whether it will win you anything. "Weaker" or "Stronger" seem to be good enough indicators on their own.

 

[hotrod0823]

I just played Bremp's game and had to stop yet again because my computer hates 1.29 but anyway was able to get everything but Monarchy and Republic. I made a poor choice in who to sell Monotheism (the only other Middle age Civ) rather than check for techs to trade partly because it would mean putting gifting couple AI way up in tech just to be able to trade Monotheism to them. It was fun though.

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by AlanH
A couple of questions - Is this a typical game position for you? Does difficulty level change the position at this stage of your game much?

Yes, this is very typical game position for all my games. That would explain why I'm usually too slow in launching my spaceship. It doesn't matter what level I'm playing, I always let the AI to take over the tech lead. While they are too busy satisfying their thirst for new techs, I'm just saving up all my gold and building up my military to get ready for my chance to take over the world.

---

Just in case someone may misunderstand me, I'm not saying that doing our own research is silly or bad. It's really all defending on how we want to finish the game. Since I'm in the farming business, I don't really care much for fast tech and fast space launch anyway; there is really no need for me to waste my income on research while I could easily buy all my techs from the AI for a lot cheaper. May be this help explain why I think "milk" will do a lot of good for those who just want to learn to play a better game.

As everyone have demonstraded in this thread, we usually have no problem in catching up to all the techs without really paying any gold because we usually get all of our money back (plus extra profit) at the end of the turn. Since it does take money to make money, the secret here is to save enough money while awaiting for the right oportunity to make those big trades. And there are plenty of trade deal like this in any game. Basically, anytime we see some AIs having good enough cash, we would immediately use our buying power to transfer all their gold into our own account; works every time!

 

[Yndy]

Bremp's deity trading
Trade WM with Iro and Rome for 24g. Also get an update on their territories.
Normally I would have traded contact with Iro and Rome but instead I pay an outrageous 7gpt and 18g to England fro contact with Zulu. Contact with Russia for WM to Zulu. Russia pays Territory map and contact with Zulu fro WM. Egypt pays us Maths, Territory map and 52g. Sell Maths to Rome for Poly and 100g. Sell Poly to Iroquois for Code of Laws, WM, 2gpt and 6g.
The trick is there are a lot of monopoly techs:
Iro: Republic,
Rome: Monarchy,
England, Egypt: Currency
All the new world: Construction
Buy Construction from Zulu for Poly, WM, 152, 8gpt.
Seems like I have to trade contacts a little.
Pay Rome all contacts, Construction and WM for Monarchy, WM and 110g
Trade England Monarchy for Currency and 270g.
Trade Iroqouis all contacts, Monarchy, Maths, 18gpt and 385g. Subsequently trade construction to Iro for 15gpt and 2g. Then sell them Currency for 292. Sell Currency to Zulu for WM+175g.
Sell Currency to Rome for WM + 165g
Sell Republic to Rome for 284g +WM. Sell the WM to Iro for some extra 70g.
I'm tech leader with my free Engineering (just figured out that I fired the save with PTW v1.21)
Rome lacks Republic, Egypt and Zulu lack Monarchy as well. Russia lacks Currency, Monarchy and Republic (hey they're scientific).
Gift Russia Currency and they draw Engineering as well. I can gift before they trade between each other.

I have 1010gold and +19gpt(@100% tax)

 

[mad-bax]

I tried this trading turn exercise having first read the thread and didn't keep track of what I did.

This is one of the best threads I've ever read and has completely changed the way I look at trading.

1. Renegotiating peace deals. Brilliant. Whats the downside? I was able to get techs from nearly everyone for free.

2. Starting wars. Fantastic. I was able to start a global war, and I got paid for the privelige.

Although I didn't keep track of what I did, I ended up with 949 gold 8gpt, all the techs with only a couple of civs level with me, everyones WM without exception and a huge global conflict which I'm fairly confident I could avoid getting too involved in.

Thankyou to Moonsinger and everyone who posted. This will definitely improve my game.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
Since it does take money to make money, the secret here is to save enough money while awaiting for the right oportunity to make those big trades.

I think this exercise has demonstrated that point very well as applied to situations where the AI has just learned a critical tech like Map Making.

Bremp's example demonstrates that you can use your own critical advances to make big steps forward even if you have no cash to start with. In his case the discovery of new contacts gives the leverage needed to start the ball rolling, but it was risky because he could have lost the race to first contact with the other continent in his game.

This demonstrates the alternatives we recognise in RL - high risk/high spender vs. low risk/saver paths. Spend to maximise your own contacts, maps and tech advances, or save a nest egg ready to buy your way into the market.

At higher difficulty levels it's more difficult/impossible to develop your own tech advantage, so the gambler's approach gets more risky, and your savings plan becomes more attractive.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
While they are too busy satisfying their thirst for new techs, I'm just saving up all my gold and building up my military to get ready for my chance to take over the world.

Sorry to be asking so many questions, but I'm really learning a lot from this thread.

When you are not self-researching something critical, like Pottery, do you run the science slider at zero or 10%?

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by AlanH
Sorry to be asking so many questions

There is really nothing to be sorry about.

When you are not self-researching something critical, like Pottery, do you run the science slider at zero or 10%?

If possible, I would try to go with the 1 scientist trick and science slider at zero. However, at the early stage of the game, I can't afford to create the 1 scientist; therefore, I usually waste 10% on the science slider as a backup plan.

 

[AlanH]

Originally posted by Moonsinger
If possible, I would try to go with the 1 scientist trick and science slider at zero. However, at the early stage of the game, I can't afford to create the 1 scientist; therefore, I usually waste 10% on the science slider as a backup plan. [/B]

That's becoming my style as well, but I sometimes wonder if it makes sense to spend anything at all on science in the ancient era, apart from a few obvious first level ones like Pottery. It probably depends on being able to predict the right tech to run with so that there's a reasonable chance it will become a monopoly tech after 40 turns. I'll have to study that article on AI tech selection again.

 

[Ronald]

Originally posted by Yndy
Bremp's deity trading
I'm tech leader with my free Engineering (just figured out that I fired the save with PTW v1.21)
Rome lacks Republic, Egypt and Zulu lack Monarchy as well. Russia lacks Currency, Monarchy and Republic (hey they're scientific).
I have 1010gold and +19gpt(@100% tax)

Hi Yndy,

Great trading

I was so excited with this trading opportunity, that I forgot to write the sequence down. I ended up with all the techs, but I had much lower gold and gpt income than you.

It was a great example of what you can achieve by maximising the opportunities at a certain stage of the game.

Bremp: Thanks for sharing this wonderful example for the power of well managed trading

Ronald

 

[Bamspeedy]

Originally posted by mad-bax
1. Renegotiating peace deals. Brilliant. Whats the downside? I was able to get techs from nearly everyone for free.

There isn't much of a downside IF you have a power lead. If you don't have a power lead, then you will have to fork over money to stay at peace (and if you have nothing, then you are at war!). Once you enter into the negotiating table to find out if they will pay for peace or not, it is too late to back out of it, so you better make sure you have the power lead. It can be risky if you don't know for sure if you have the power lead or not. But usually, if the powerlead is that close, I either don't take the risk, or just pay the small amount they want.

Other than the gamble, the only downside is you can't attack them in the next 20 turns (without ruining your rep), so you have to plan for that.

Techs, improvements and wonders doesn't seems to affect power rankings as much as military, cash, and # of cities does, so certain play styles will find it easier to get a power lead and extort from the AI than others.

 

[Qitai]

Just note again that you are unlikely to be leading in power on deity early in the game. Thus, it may not help much (Or even HURTS!!) in the upcoming GOTM20. Also, not suitable for warmongers who constantly change their war target and don't like to ruin their reputation (e.g. myself).

 

[Smirk]

Originally posted by Qitai
Just note again that you are unlikely to be leading in power on deity early in the game. Thus, it may not help much (Or even HURTS!!) in the upcoming GOTM20. Also, not suitable for warmongers who constantly change their war target and don't like to ruin their reputation (e.g. myself).

It isn't any question of being unlikely, you either will or will not get a power lead and be able to extort these beneficial deals. This is stating the obvious. If you have no military you won't be capturing cities. If you don't build cultural improvements you won't win a cultural victory.

If you make *any* kind of 20 turn deal, and value your reputation you have to plan a little more carefully. I see no value in ever proposing a strategy where planning doesn't exist. Things like the peace deals keep you aware of this planning, and also keep the AI aware.

Additionally there is a lot of value in making a peace deal even if you have to pay, at least you can then scoff any demands and you can be reasonably sure you will be safe for 20 turns. That is, making the eventual wars revolve around your planning as opposed to the whim of a simple AI.

Now if you change your target frequently it seems like you are just making everyone mad at you and gaining very little. I know who my potential early/middle/late targets are in 4000BC. I am hardly ever in a situation where I can support fighting on multiple fronts, when ever I see a situation like that I realize I wasn't as agressive as I should have been, and thus next game I speed up the entire process. My play style never builds up huge forces, I try to stay in a constant blitz until the enemy is dead, thus I need good roads and infrastructure to build and send reinforcements.

The only problem is when the loses exceed your ability to reproduce units, thereby stalling the war for 5-10 turns. But as a comparison to the build-up militarist this would be a loss, sue for peace and then build-up again. Different play style, different results.

The point is that the more I concentrate my forces the less likely any defense can stand up against it, and at the same time I can maintain peaceful relations with all the other civs and in most cases even translate their fear of me into useful production. Unless I can capture or otherwise gain something from a civ, why be at war, or change targets?

 

[Moonsinger]

Originally posted by Bamspeedy
There isn't much of a downside IF you have a power lead. If you don't have a power lead, then you will have to fork over money to stay at peace (and if you have nothing, then you are at war!). Once you enter into the negotiating table to find out if they will pay for peace or not, it is too late to back out of it, so you better make sure you have the power lead. It can be risky if you don't know for sure if you have the power lead or not. But usually, if the powerlead is that close, I either don't take the risk, or just pay the small amount they want.

In addition to what you just said, I think we also take an attitude hit everytime we renegotiating peace and they ending up paying us money. I have been trying the peace renegotiating trick in the last few day and I'm noticing that the AI's attitude instantly drop one level after every renegotiating peace deal. Therefore, I think the renegotiating peace deal will make it tougher for the Diplomatic win.

 

[Qitai]

I am just highlighting this just in case some players might rush into this re-negotiation trick without checking. I made this mistake initially since I was in the lead most of the time and it did not occur to me that I have to pay instead of getting $$ for re-negotiating peace. It may sound obvious now, but when you first learn this trick, it works so well that you may actually forgot to check the power graph!!! At least, i did forgot.

Also, when I mean changing war target, I do not mean actually fighting one and then deciding to fight another at the same time. It means I don't have an exact target while I building up my military. And often then not, I am able to war earlier than when I had anticipate and had to wait just because I do not like to ruin my reputation (Not that ruining reputation is a big deal, I just don't like it).

There are a lot of variable influencing my warring target and those variable keep changing.

Eaxmples
(1) when pyramid is build by some AI and you want it NOW!;
(2) when AI has troops in your backyard but would not declare war and that leaves you worrying if you go to war with another civ and this civ wars you, it will be a two-sided war, so you war that civ instead;
(3) when target AI gain some military technology unexpectedly making it less of a juicy target;
(4) Your town with luxury/resource flip! and that is your only town with that particular luxury/resource! etc...). 20 turns is afterall not really that short to have alot of things changing.

Not sure about the part that if you have a 20turn deal, they will be less likely to attack. In my experience, that does not seems to matter to AI. My believe is that if they want to hit you, they will. Never had the impression AI cares about reputation.

And I fully agree with your accessment of concentrating during warring. Nothing is worse than a prolong war that drains your resources but does not gain you anything.

Utimately, you have to decide these before using this re-negotiated peace trick.
(1) You are sure you will gain from a re-negotiation or believe paying a 20 turn peace will do you good.
(2) You can live with the 20 turn peace restriction or don't care about reputation.
(3) The gain for re-negotiation peace is worth it. Without obvious power difference, the gain can be as little as 30 gold or less!!