A reasonable plea - don't be so shallow

[Cuivienen]

Could you explain how, exactly, the game is condescending towards Asian or other non-European cultures? After all, every nation, China included, developed in a similar, though not identical, pattern. China even experienced a Dark Age -- it just came later than Europe's, happening after the collapse of the Song dynasty to the Mongols and the later collapse of the Mongol Empire. While China never became Monotheistic in the western sense, Buddhism and Confucianism both contain elements of Monotheism. This is just one example.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

For my part, I do want to see more.....divergent? tech lines. Especially where cultural techs are concerned. That is I want to see technologies that adequately represent all of the major culture groups that have existed in the world-like SE Asian, Asian, Mediterranian, African, East and West European and North and South American. That said, though, I certainly don't think that South Americans should automatically go down the South American Technology and building path (after all, if you did then all you would have would be a historical simulator !) I think that they might 'lean' a little in that direction, but it should depend more on your current characteristics, your surrounding environment and your neighbours!
Anyway, I hope what I'm talking about makes sense!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Cuivienen]

Personally, my preference would be more towards a "build-your-own-civ" game. You might be called the Romans and your leader may be Gaius Julius Caesar, but if your nation starts in a vast region of dry plains, you'll act a lot more like the real-life Mongols or Zulu! I think each civilization should develop its own Unique Unit and characteristics based on its territory and its expansion/development style rather than based on what that civilization was like in real life. That way, the game is really like Alternate history -- what civilization would look like on a completely different world.

Either that or have the Mongols always start in the plains, the Dutch always start near swamps on the coast, the Maya always start in the jungle, etc. -- but that's pretty boring.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Well, for me the big issue is that although you might start with certain traits (which might, in turn, effect your early game play) these traits should NOT be set in stone, but adjust according to your play style! That way, if you are surrounded by mountains and hills, and build LOTS of mines and shield-generating improvements, then you will probably become more Industrious. If you are surrounded by Plains, grassland and forests, and specialise in boosting your agricultural output, then you will probably evolve into an Agricultural Civ, and so on and so forth! The only problem with this is the 'Expansionist' trait 'cause, by definition, all civs start out as highly expansionist! If there were some way to allow civs which don't simply grab every last inch of land to prosper and/or harsh terrain has a greater impact on early expansion, then this shouldn't be such a big problem. For instance, if your civ is surrounded by swamps and jungles, then your expansion rate will be slowed and, if you HAD an expansionist trait, you would probably end up losing it.
In my tech advancement model, though, your civ traits also influence your rate of progress in certain tech-fields. So agricultural civs would get a bonus to aquiring techs for agricultural development and maximizing food yields.
Of course, this idea would require a much bigger and robust tech tree to work properly, though!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Aussie_Lurker]

Maybe if they also placed greater emphasis on both 'cultural flavours' and so-called 'gateway' techs. i.e., once one civ gets this tech, it opens up a whole new path of development. If these gateway techs were also only available to the first civ that gets it (unless they trade it, of course) then you could get some MAJOR diversification between civs in the game!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

 

[Uncle Sam]

At least when Sid created Civ1 he had the conscience not to put America as a civ into game. With civ2, things only get worse, and he probably knows this.

As for the game being Euro/Middle-eastern, it's a matter of time when the western civilization will be begging the Eastern for mercy. Hell, I'm western too, but I can see it coming.

So put your haughty ideals like "black people are not humans" and "indians are to be slaughtered" to a safe and lock it down forever.

Every nation has its great virtues and flaws. India and China make more than half of the world's population.

You know what the great Wstern civilization is to China? A spot on the map. A country that can be overrun with chinese soldiers armed with spoons. A market that is not wothy of fighting for.

In 20 years, you'll be begging to have any western civilization inculded in any compter game, so better start to make some changes now, before its too late.

Ok, this guy is completely nuts. He jsut hates America and wants compuetr games to reflect his views, nearly as i can tell. I have no idea how he started getting "Indians should be slaughtered and Blacks are inferior" crap in there, when NOBODY mentioned anything of the sort nor is anythign like that in the game.

This guy just comes from a messed up Eastern European country (sorry, had to say it) and just hopes that something horrible happens to dethrone America from it's spot as dominant superpower. I would continue but then i'd go completely off topic. Bibor, just take your damn America bashing to Off Topic if you need to say it so bad.

 

[Bibor]

Here, a quote (nclesam):
... and just hopes that something horrible happens to dethrone America from it's spot as dominant superpower.

This is the problem. You don't see yourselves as individuals, but as members of a superpower that has the right to kick everyones butt at whim.

I don't hate americans. I hate ignorant and bullying people. They can be croatians, americans, jews, chinese. Whatever.
However, 100% bullies and ignorants on this forum happen to come from the US. What a weird conicidence.

Actually, I got to understanding with more than a few US citizens around here that don't give a damn if I'm Laden's son, Saddam's nephew or a three-eyed alien from Orion. As long as I contribute to the game and forums, they treat me as equal.

Do I ask too much when asking the same from Firaxis? Obviously I could not find out, since you banged in with yelling "what do you want? you are just eurotrash!?".

Since you misunderstood my article, here's the short version for dummies:
I want CIV4 to be made for the BEST EDUCATED PEOPLE AROUND THE PLANET, not for people that will say i misspelled Ivlivs Caesar.

All this said, I'm not suprised that you guys don't even know what "irony" or "sarcasm" is. You took my "Chinese overrun with spoons" as a serious threat to your nation... hrmpf.

As for the market situation, my estimation that the Far East will become the next economic, as you like to put it, superpower, is not something that I made up. This information comes from mainly european and american businessmen I work with. Most of you are not even competent to even argue with me about global economics.
So, If you can't live with this fact, either as a nation, or as individuals, that's your problem. Not mine.

As for my statement about black people and stuff, this was largely written in anger, but intelligent people read between the lines and understood what i wanted to say.
So here's the explanation for dummies (again):
Every nation/country has its flaws. By putting your own garbage under the carpet, you don't get the privilege to call your nation (culture) better, stronger or more dominant.

-kirby

 

[mitsho]

@bibor It's a general problem that in the internet, sarcasm and irony aren't 'checked'. This is just because it's written and you can't hear the 'sound' of irony or sarcasm.

Btw you remind me of some people also from the former East block. They were just likey you: they admire the east(ern philosophy, etc) and made America an evil. But that's just simple crap.

Ok, I myself don't have the highest opinion of american politics and so on, but hey, that's not against all Americans. I have nothing against americans, first this would be racism (because i would say all Americans are .... ) and second I know no american personally.

And at last, that all these 'stubborn people on this forum' are Americans (after you) has nothing to say. This is just by 'chance'.

and really last back to topic: If I want to learn something about history, etc I don't play civ for that. this game should be open to everybody. You mustn't know this or that to play it. Otherways, it'd be better a book.

Just my 2 (euro) cents

mitsho

 

[Bibor]

@bibor It's a general problem that in the internet, sarcasm and irony aren't 'checked'. This is just because it's written and you can't hear the 'sound' of irony or sarcasm.

Btw you remind me of some people also from the former East block. They were just likey you: they admire the east(ern philosophy, etc) and made America an evil. But that's just simple crap.

Ok, I myself don't have the highest opinion of american politics and so on, but hey, that's not against all Americans. I have nothing against americans, first this would be racism (because i would say all Americans are .... ) and second I know no american personally.

And at last, that all these 'stubborn people on this forum' are Americans (after you) has nothing to say. This is just by 'chance'.

and really last back to topic: If I want to learn something about history, etc I don't play civ for that. this game should be open to everybody. You mustn't know this or that to play it. Otherways, it'd be better a book.

Just my 2 (euro) cents

mitsho

Huh?
I admire east? Stubborn american people? I want CIV4 to be a book?

[irony]
Errr... aaah, i got it. Okay. thanx. Bye.
[/irony]

 

[warpstorm]

Just a friendly word of advice (from a game developer), Bibor. Slamming the country where the developers come from (and by extension the developers themselves as citizens of that country) is a quick way to get added to their ignore list, pretty much ensuring that your ideas good or bad are not heard at all in the future. Not fair, but true. To date nobody has been removed from my ignore list.

 

[Bibor]

Just a friendly word of advice (from a game developer), Bibor. Slamming the country where the developers come from (and by extension the developers themselves as citizens of that country) is a quick way to get added to their ignore list, pretty much ensuring that your ideas good or bad are not heard at all in the future. Not fair, but true. To date nobody has been removed from my ignore list.

I'll take my chances.

-kirby

P.s. Ssssh! .... (whispering) Don't tell anyone, but I designed a game too. The game mechanics. It will soon be on market. And guess what? Its a strategy game in 3D. A combination of Heroes 3 and Warcraft. Go see for yourself: theforgottenworld (i can't put a link because it would be advertising)So guess what? US is not the only country from where game developers come from. And guess what else? I dont need my ideas implemented CIV4 because I can make a new "civ-like" game with my own team if I really want to.
(really silently whispering) And I'll put you on my ignore list too, since I don't take seriously "developers" that alter other people's terrain with simple photoshop effects. But thanks for the advice.

-kirby

 

[warpstorm]

It's okay. I modded that for fun. I never claimed I was an artist.

(Not that you'll see this since you've added me to your ignore list).

BTW, that game looks like it could be cool. I look forward to seeing it.

 

[tcjsavannah]

Most of you are not even competent to even argue with me about global economics.

Better watch out, a fall from your high horse might be hazardous to your health.

 

[thestonesfan]

Here, a quote (nclesam):
... and just hopes that something horrible happens to dethrone America from it's spot as dominant superpower.

This is the problem. You don't see yourselves as individuals, but as members of a superpower that has the right to kick everyones butt at whim.

I don't hate americans. I hate ignorant and bullying people. They can be croatians, americans, jews, chinese. Whatever.
However, 100% bullies and ignorants on this forum happen to come from the US. What a weird conicidence.

Actually, I got to understanding with more than a few US citizens around here that don't give a damn if I'm Laden's son, Saddam's nephew or a three-eyed alien from Orion. As long as I contribute to the game and forums, they treat me as equal.

Do I ask too much when asking the same from Firaxis? Obviously I could not find out, since you banged in with yelling "what do you want? you are just eurotrash!?".

Since you misunderstood my article, here's the short version for dummies:
I want CIV4 to be made for the BEST EDUCATED PEOPLE AROUND THE PLANET, not for people that will say i misspelled Ivlivs Caesar.

All this said, I'm not suprised that you guys don't even know what "irony" or "sarcasm" is. You took my "Chinese overrun with spoons" as a serious threat to your nation... hrmpf.

As for the market situation, my estimation that the Far East will become the next economic, as you like to put it, superpower, is not something that I made up. This information comes from mainly european and american businessmen I work with. Most of you are not even competent to even argue with me about global economics.
So, If you can't live with this fact, either as a nation, or as individuals, that's your problem. Not mine.

As for my statement about black people and stuff, this was largely written in anger, but intelligent people read between the lines and understood what i wanted to say.
So here's the explanation for dummies (again):
Every nation/country has its flaws. By putting your own garbage under the carpet, you don't get the privilege to call your nation (culture) better, stronger or more dominant.

-kirby

I wasn't calling any nation anything.

I was calling you a condescending jerk.

 

[Slax]

This has got to be one of the oddest threads I've ever read.

 

[dh_epic]

I'd be one of the first people back those who accuse Civ of being culturally biased. But because the people launching these accusations come across as unresearched, childish, and arrogant, I'm with everyone else.

Where the HECK did you come up with some of this stuff?

 

[thestonesfan]

He slept through "Civfanatics 101: How to bring up a topic without being extremely offensive"

 

[Drakan]

Bibor, I understand your point of view that perhaps the game is slightly biassed to Western standards but it's only a game, and a good one at that, regardless of it's flaws.

Americans now are enjoying the summit of their power. Let them. Before them were many other Superpowers (Egypt, China, Rome, Spain, GB) and after them will come others ( namely India and or China, bis). Americans will continue to be a predominant power well into the next century. R & D, their Armies, their amazing economic and industrious power. This country ain't going to dissappear overnight, I can assure you that Bibor.

I for one am happy living with such a Superpower. Never in History has there been a more benevolent Empire than than the U.S.A. and I'd rather have them dominating the Modern World than anyone else for that matter.

People at CFC generally are very polite, and I'd say the average age is late twenties or thirties. So they/we are more than able to discuss with you Bibor Global Economy if you so wish in other forums.

After all the game has been designed in the U.S.A. so it's almost blatant it will be slightly biassed towards their culture. So what, it's a cool game and Firaxis needs to attract the more people the better to reap a nice profit from sales. I would dislike this game to be like uncommon valour because it would be reserved for a minority. You cannot make everybody happy. I'm surprised with what you've written, all your posts untill now had been very respectful. Anything gone wrong?

 

[Longasc]

Anti-Americanism is quite popular in Europe nowadays. Especially in those countries who needed the help of America to end their own stupid war, that is what I call real gratitude. Just sick.

This is rubbish. Not related to Civ3 anymore. Just hate-mongering by someone who thinks too highly of himself and lowly of others. Perfect breeding ground for ideologies based on hate and prejudice.

Bah.

 

[Drakan]

Well I think that we Europeans ought to be specially grateful to our american cousins who have saved us TWICE in the past century from ourselves.

Quoting Churchill IIRC: The Balkans elaborate more History than they can digest.

They would still be killing each other If it hadn't been for the americans, because we europeans did NOTHING to stop the genocide in the 90's in the Balkans.