A reasonable plea - don't be so shallow

[geishapunk]

Thus the europeans couldn´t do anything to stop the killing on the balkan because their lacked the military power to do so.

 

[sir_schwick]

The operations in Bosnia were NATO operations. The members of NATO have had a simple understanding for many years that the US has the arms industry to support a large military, and they provide most of the arms. It is a fact that has lead to much tension across the Atlantic.

Within 20 or 30 years China will be the world's largest consumer market. India will be second some time after that. It might be wise for the developers of games(not just Civ) to start thinking about how to build in features and paradigms into their products which will make them more competative on the Asian market. I know its still a couple decades, but it is a problem which might add direction to this discussion.

As for the Civ 4, I wish they would either drop pre-assigned traits and UUs, or keep the traits and UUs, but be more accurate and have more historical depth in terms of information and respresentation.

 

[dh_epic]

I think you Europeans are a shade too hard on yourself, kowtowing to America. I believe in America and I'm a huge fan of American culture.

But a lot of people don't understand why people hate America. I mean, there's something to be said for being the most powerful -- like Shaq and Kobe -- it just garners a certain amount of resentment.

But America's isolationist period, at the start of the 20th century... it definitely is better for them in the long run than the post WW2, interfere in everything period. And you might even argue that it's done more harm than good to the rest of the world.

September 11th was a horrible needless tragedy, and whoever did it needs to pay dearly. But it didn't happen because America is a shining beacon of freedom. It happened because of how people around the world perceive America. The policy with Israel would probably be at the center of it. But it would be exacerbated by just knowing that America had interfered with a neighbour -- whether they like that neighbour or not. And you only have to watch the news to see another situation every few years.

Here's a history of America intervening, in the name of national security.

http://www.adbusters.org/jams/history/flash.html

It's absolutely fascinating, and 100% true. This is why some people have very anti-american sentiments.

Me, I'm very pro american (but anti-Bush), and I'd love to see Civ 4 reflect some of these strategies in that history!

 

[Drakan]

Thus the europeans couldn´t do anything to stop the killing on the balkan because their lacked the military power to do so.

No, we Europeans have big enough armies to stop that civil war and others. What we lack is the american determination to do so.

We Europeans love talking and talking (I'm generalising) albeit the Americans act thereupon. Now perhaps they don't do it right but at least they TRY to do something about it, unlike us. It's as if the Europeans were the Greek City-states, always quarrelling amongst each other, and the US was the rising Roman Empire that talks less and acts more.

I agree that much of the World's resentment towards the U.S.A. is their totally biassed attitude towards Israel exacerbating people all over the World that come to despise it. But American Foreign Policy is changing it's agenda, I hope. Anyway, all this is slightly.....

 

[Longasc]

You are right, we are absolutely . Someone already started a thread related to Civ4 suggestions regarding this topic without such a load of nationalism.

 

[warpstorm]

Within 20 or 30 years China will be the world's largest consumer market. India will be second some time after that. It might be wise for the developers of games(not just Civ) to start thinking about how to build in features and paradigms into their products which will make them more competative on the Asian market. I know its still a couple decades, but it is a problem which might add direction to this discussion.

This is true, but it's a tough problem. First off, China is very protectionistic. They currently won't allow many outside games in. Those that are allowed are thoughoughly screened to make sure they aren't subversive (I've heard that Civ is on the subversive list - I read it on the Internet, it must be true).

The larger Asian market isn't as tough a nut to crack as the Chinese, but still tough (for Westerners). The biggest problem is the cultural differences. A game that is a big hit in Europe and the Americas could be nothing over in Japan and Korea (the current big Asian markets). Conversely, some of their biggest hits don't do well in the Western marketplace.

The video game market has been working this front from both directions for the past decade. It's not a new idea. Remember that 2 of the 3 big players in that market are from Asia. The games industry is multi-national.

Given enough time and mixing of cultures, we may see a bit of homogenization going on, but till then those within the culture will have the best chance to make games that resonate with the people of that culture.

 

[Yaype]

All I can say is that with how incredibly this thread has become, I am surprised it still exists--especially when you consider the number of nation and individual-bashing replies there have been.

 

[EddyG17]

Warpson is right, and you can see prove of it in the video games that don't sell well here but do in Asia, like the eye-toy, Americans(i'm peruvian) prefer action games like true crimes of L.A. and Grand Theft Auto, while the the having to go out and kill innocent civilians in the streets is outrageous to Asian people, thus they prefer RPGs' like animal crossing.

Then maybe the reason why Civ is pro western civilizations is becuase the don't sell well in other places or it is not allowed to even be at sale there.

 

[Jon Shafer]

Yikes Bibor, it looks like you have an axe to grind.

Civilization has, is and always will be a game based on history. It is not meant to be an exact simulation - it is supposed to be fun for as many people as possible. That means some historical accuracy will be discarded in favor of other things. If you don't like that then there's other games you can play (though the ones you seem to prefer aren't very popular, meaning there's not all that many of them these days...).

And as far as the dev team having picked up 4 comics about history, you're a bit off the mark. Soren Johnson, who did a lot of the designing and programmed the AI for Civ 3 (and is the lead designer for cIV) got a BA in History and went to Stanford and Oxford.

 

[warpstorm]

Actually, The World at War by the guys who made Uncommon Valour looks like it'll be very good. Grand strategic whole world WW2 combat at a season per trun.

BTW, they just released War in the Pacific a few days ago. It is the big brother to Uncommon Valour. While I'll propbably pass on it, Bibor, it sounds right up your alley. (Not that you can see this)

 

[Bibor]

warpstorm

Well, seems we all chilled a bit.

I'm sorry if i hurt anyone, but i was not just having a bad week. Obviously we did not quite well understand each other.

If I have to choose between China and America as my superpower of choice ( ) i will always choose America. No arguing about that.

So, if chinese don't know much about Western culture (and they don't, firsthand knowledge; but boy they are learning fast), and they have a repressive society - then beat them with the opposite of that! Show them that we can understand their culture and that we are not repressive. Why not?

Make western games more appealing to eastern market than eastern games to western. On the long run, It will pay off.

(You know that you can swing a person's attitude to positive just because you spell his name correctly.)

Why not remove "CIV4" from the China's banned list? It is a big market after all...

 

[dh_epic]

Ignoring everything that's been said in the past...

I think creating a less westernized view of Civ would be a huge step towards making the game educational for a wide variety of audiences... as well as more interesting. I'm not saying that because it would be more tedious and boring and "realistic" -- I'm saying it could be an excuse to open up all kinds of alternate strategies.

What does it say when democracy is made out to have nothing but advantages? Wait, sorry, the only disadvantage of democracy is that your people love peace so much that they'll become sad when you fight a war ... please...

 

[Bibor]

Actually, I have one more question for you guys.

Why are you defending the US politics etc. so dearly? I cannot comprehend that. Am I hurting you, as individuals, with that?
For me, nationalism, religion, lifestyle, love etc. are all a matter of personal choice and point of view. I can love or hate, agree or disagree, defend or attack, but... I can't say I'm right. I'm right just as is the person I'm arguing with.

As long as both sides have arguments (and are willing to argue), things are fine. The problems start when the other side just clenches his fist and punches me in the face. Now that's not arguing. That's bullying.

A typical example:

My statement:
"I think that US will not be the leading economic power in the world in 20 years."

Expected reply:
"What makes you think so?" OR "That's not true. I know this because..."

Actual reply:
"You are dumb. And your statement is anti-american. Anti-americans are not welcome here."

Now that's a punch. And I have zero tolerance for that kind of behaviour. That's why my posts were so bitter and full of anger.

-kirby

 

[EddyG17]

The US would have a cheap labor force for a long time to come in its homeland, forget china, they have illigal immigrants. so I'll that the start of the end of the US being the leading economic superpower is the day immigrants form south america stop comming.

 

[Uncle Sam]

Actually, I have one more question for you guys.

Bibor, not to rag you but i think we can safely say a 'cease-fire' has been declared in this thread and we should try to get it back on topic. Bring it to OT if you want to continue the conversation so we don't get in trouble.

 

[Jon Shafer]

In what ways is Civ so western-centric?

 

[Lennon]

In what ways is Civ so western-centric?

I think some people have a problem with the Americans being a Civ, when you also have the native American tribes in the game. But the Yanks are a Civ too, even if they're essentially European (of course not only) immigrants and even if this may all look a bit weird next to the Iroquois, Aztecs etc. And what would people expect from an American made game, with America being a very large market?

 

[NP300]

I think some people have a problem with the Americans being a Civ, when you also have the native American tribes in the game. But the Yanks are a Civ too, even if they're essentially European (of course not only) immigrants and even if this may all look a bit weird next to the Iroquois, Aztecs etc. And what would people expect from an American made game, with America being a very large market?

But if we exclude the USA because it was a British colony then we must also exclude the Carthaginians, the French, the English and the Spanish. Carthage was a Phoenician colony. Spain and France were Roman colonies. And England was a kind of Germanic colony.

 

[Lennon]

But if we exclude the USA because it was a British colony then we must also exclude the Carthaginians, the French, the English and the Spanish. Carthage was a Phoenician colony. Spain and France were Roman colonies. And England was a kind of Germanic colony.

Read my post again.

 

[thestonesfan]

I'm glad we're all happy now.

Anyway, I do agree with Bibor - there's really no reason the different culture groups can't be more, well, different. They made the buildings different, they can go a little ways further and give us some different units, improvements, and maybe even some different music. Not for every civ, that would be a lot of extra work and I'd rather have the extra civs. Just for every culture group.

And Bibor - as for your question - you are stretching it a bit. No one said "Anti-Americans are not welcome here." I'm not a nationalist by any stretch of the imagination, but I can't help but react to blanket insults to the US, which would include me. If we all started bashing away at Croatia, you might take a bit of offense also.

Not that I can't understand people's fascination/frustration/contempt with America. I'd probably feel the same way If I didn't live here. But keep in mind that the guys and gals who post here are pretty much just like you.

Anyway, no hard feelings from me, at least.