A Reflection on Movement Costs

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Originally, I didn't want to be nitpicky (plus, I was too excited over all the other great stuff), but since it's displayed above: does that disjointed UI element bother anybody else?

I wish it eliminated the empty space between the End-Turn button and the unit/city popup interface. Just run the popups to the right behind the End-Turn button, even the little decorative medallion can remain. It just looks really ugly floating there unanchored and slightly touching the main interface.

EDIT:

Here's what I'm talking about, did a quick n' dirty edit of it:

This is not even alpha software as far as I know, UI is probably going to get a major overhaul just like it did before Civ 5 was released.

 

[Seek]

It is good that promotions are not removed. But I expect them to get a major change from civ V. Not as dumbed down as in BE, but such that the AI would benefit equally from it as the player does.

Looking at Barathor's edit above, there is a star icon over the unit panel and the XP bar is full - wonder if the star still represents a unit upgrade (seems quite early for a scout upgrade) or if that's the promotion icon (which might imply that there are still different promotion options).

 

[Barathor]

This is not even alpha software as far as I know, UI is probably going to get a major overhaul just like it did before Civ 5 was released.

Indeed, it's pretty early; they don't even have the icons in the build list. I just hope this is still on the list to receive some polish.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

Looking at Barathor's edit above, there is a star icon over the unit panel and the XP bar is full - wonder if the star still represents a unit upgrade (seems quite early for a scout upgrade) or if that's the promotion icon (which might imply that there are still different promotion options).

I think it is the (placeholder) icon to promote a unit and probably the player can choose a promotion. But that is not my point, there should be different promotion options. But I hope not that a unit can have all the promotion types. If it specializes in one direction other promotion types should not be available or there should be a maximum number of promotions to units. Otherwise the player protects its most experienced (uber)units with a lot of promotions while the AI doesn't take care of that.

I am even going to extend this idea. A unit should have a maximum number of promotions (4 or 5), but it will keep getting more experience. After acquiring the maximum number of promotions a unit can only change a promotion upon hitting the next threshold of experience. New promotions can unlock even after the maximum number of promotions is acquired. This will make an experienced unit still interesting but not that much overpowered.

 

[AriochIV]

The star-and-chevron icon is puzzling, as it's almost exactly the same as the Upgrade icon used in Civ V. But it would make more sense that it's a promotion icon -- as was mentioned, the XP bar is full, and it doesn't seem likely that there's a Scout replacement available on turn 8. On the warrior, the icon for the earned promotion on the green ribbon at the bottom looks pretty specific, indicating that promotions are still chosen.

Back to the original topic, I think the new movement rules will make terrain much more significant. Traditionally in Civilization, you could more or less ignore terrain movement penalties as long as you entered the rough terrain tile with your last movement point; now you will more often be compelled to go around rough terrain. And, as someone else mentioned, when a ranged unit is defending rough terrain, any Move 2 unit that wants to attack it will have to stop for a turn in the adjacent tile, giving the ranged unit an extra turn to attack.

 

[Calyxx]

I think this is a good change overall - terrain features like rivers will matter a lot more than they did in CiV, which can only be a good thing.

 

[AriochIV]

I think this is a good change overall - terrain features like rivers will matter a lot more than they did in CiV, which can only be a good thing.

Actually, rivers won't be changed, as they don't have a high movement cost to cross, they just end movement for the turn.

 

[Seek]

The star-and-chevron icon is puzzling, as it's almost exactly the same as the Upgrade icon used in Civ V. But it would make more sense that it's a promotion icon -- as was mentioned, the XP bar is full, and it doesn't seem likely that there's a Scout replacement available on turn 8. On the warrior, the icon for the earned promotion on the green ribbon at the bottom looks pretty specific, indicating that promotions are still chosen.

Indeed, though what was puzzling to me was that the promotion icon *didn't* look specific. But again, probably just a placeholder.

Back to the original topic, I think the new movement rules will make terrain much more significant. Traditionally in Civilization, you could more or less ignore terrain movement penalties as long as you entered the rough terrain tile with your last movement point; now you will more often be compelled to go around rough terrain. And, as someone else mentioned, when a ranged unit is defending rough terrain, any Move 2 unit that wants to attack it will have to stop for a turn in the adjacent tile, giving the ranged unit an extra turn to attack.

Agreed, it should make terrain even more interesting - I'm excited. Here's to hoping the tactical AI can handle it!

 

[Barathor]

And, as someone else mentioned, when a ranged unit is defending rough terrain, any Move 2 unit that wants to attack it will have to stop for a turn in the adjacent tile, giving the ranged unit an extra turn to attack.

Ooh, I didn't even think of that! That's huge... I really like it.

I wonder if most ranged units will still have a range of 2 (I think I may have read somewhere that the early Slinger only has a range of 1).

Actually, rivers won't be changed, as they don't have a high movement cost to cross, they just end movement for the turn.

Oh, I originally thought this change was for rivers especially, maybe even cliffs too if units can disembark through them, so that you can't get lucky and just make your last move over the deterrent.

Perhaps the old movement rule still applies, but only if you haven't expended any of a unit's movement points and it's full. If you've spent any movement points, then you need the full cost needed to enter a tile.

So, rivers may still have a high movement cost, but no units move that fast and simply stop for a turn before crossing it (unless you begin your turn in front of it). Once crossed, the movement points are depleted. (Though... I think in one of the videos a worker was able to move after crossing over a river, right? *shrug*)

This may be necessary, because if they ever plan on creating a slow unit with a moverate of 1, it wouldn't be able to enter forests, hills, etc.

 

[CGPanama]

Indeed, though what was puzzling to me was that the promotion icon *didn't* look specific. But again, probably just a placeholder.

Yeah, I tried to decipher what that icon showed and the only thing I felt certain of was that there was an arrow pointing down (or maybe slightly in perspective towards the viewer/reverse).

 

[Cerilis]

I think it was edited to not show the end of the turn after the Builder crossed the river. The Scout definitely couldn't cross the river without full movement.

Or maybe the adjacent city made it possible. This would also make cities early the only way to cross a river without penalty, giving them more significance in your transportation (and covering the fact that you can't build roads/bridges yourself, at least early).

Actually, rivers won't be changed, as they don't have a high movement cost to cross, they just end movement for the turn.

You can see though that the scout wasn't able to cross the river that was one tile away. There got to be something. Like you need all your movement if there isn't an easy way to cross it. Huh, maybe fords as a terrain element?

 

[Kouvb593kdnuewnd]

This change make roads more valuable.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

I sure hope that builders will get the road construction (back). I don't mind if the traders have automatic roadbuilding too, but as Denkt stated roads and bridges become much more valuable now. Maintenance is not needed anymore too, since building a road will already cost "production".

 

[Jewman]

They mentioned that military engineers build roads or something of that sort. And I believe they are support units. So no independent road building is likely only for ancient, early classical times. I suspect they'll be unlocked in late classical or early medieval kind of like engineering is now. I think that is a good idea. Would also make a roman legion that is able to build roads early on even more powerful if they decide to keep the same design for the roman UU.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

Few things to note

- New games often use placeholders from previous games, a lot of those icons look just like the icons in Civ 5 and I'm sure that's on purpose

- As much as cool the game is, the UI looks Horrendous, but fair given it's pre-alpha software.

The button looks was the upgrade button previously wasn't?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

They mentioned that military engineers build roads or something of that sort. And I believe they are support units. So no independent road building is likely only for ancient, early classical times. I suspect they'll be unlocked in late classical or early medieval kind of like engineering is now. I think that is a good idea. Would also make a roman legion that is able to build roads early on even more powerful if they decide to keep the same design for the roman UU.

Yes. I don't believe you can custom build roads until an appropriate support unit is available.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

At least you can build roads from a point onwards. Can these support units move by themselves or do they need to be attached to a military unit? From other support units I got the idea that they have to be attached to a unit (battering ram, anti-tank gun).

 

[AriochIV]

Or maybe the adjacent city made it possible. This would also make cities early the only way to cross a river without penalty, giving them more significance in your transportation (and covering the fact that you can't build roads/bridges yourself, at least early).

It seems to be something like that; after the Builder makes one move, the overlay shows that it can move back across the river into the city, but not across the river into an empty grassland tile. Seems rather strange.

You can see though that the scout wasn't able to cross the river that was one tile away. There got to be something. Like you need all your movement if there isn't an easy way to cross it. Huh, maybe fords as a terrain element?

That's a good point. There must be a new mechanic at play here (since rivers are between tiles, they didn't actually have terrain values in Civ V), so it's not clear exactly how it works. But yes, it would appear to provide a significant defensive advantage for ranged units behind a river.

This change make roads more valuable.

Yes, but this is a potential problem since it appears that you can no longer have full control over where roads get put. I think the "Traders build roads" mechanic is the one point so far that doesn't sound right to me.

 

[Cerilis]

It seems to be something like that; after the Builder makes one move, the overlay shows that it can move back across the river into the city, but not across the river into an empty grassland tile. Seems rather strange.


That's a good point. There must be a new mechanic at play here (since rivers are between tiles, they didn't actually have terrain values in Civ V), so it's not clear exactly how it works. But yes, it would appear to provide a significant defensive advantage for ranged units behind a river.


Yes, but this is a potential problem since it appears that you can no longer have full control over where roads get put. I think the "Traders build roads" mechanic is the one point so far that doesn't sound right to me.

If (early) ranged units have only one range it would make them actually useful, too. I wonder if they can move after attacking by default.

 

[ddd123]

Few questions:
Do you think that will involve attack too? I mean if unit A has in front a plain and a hill with unit B, can we assume the unit A can only move to plain then need to wait next turn to attack ? Or the other way around?
Also what would be the final goal of this? I mean hills were definitely strong in melee but if the above is the case they woudl be super op for no reason, cause getting up to a hill would be super difficult but once there you would be nearly untouchable...And if the above is false it would be the other way around, cause getting up to a hill would be super long but once there the newcomers would have a easier way since they could just attack you 1 turn sooner and they could exploit the new movement (which is way i dont thinkg this is the case).