A shield bonus when disbanding units.

[chemp]

I am sure many have discovered this little fact, but when I was playing last night I realized that when a unit is in a city and I disband that unit, a certain amount of shields goes to build whatever that city was building. Maybe an example will illustrate my point. I was playing against the Egyptians and had taken over their empire by using howitzers/bombers. Egypt was the last civilization remaining so I did not need the vast army that I had built up. So I decided to disband some of my bombers from another city in the now occupied city of Thebes. When this happened the shield box filled up so that I was able to build the Sewer System in that turn.

Now the questions that I have or had that night are: is there a fixed amount of shields that will be given for disbanding units? Also, I was thinking of maybe using this as a way to “rush build” in a smaller city. For example my SSC has built everything available, world is basically all my cities so no need for military units, so would sending a howitzer that SSC builds in one turn to another city be wise? Would that be better then just building freight in the city? If anyone has some ideas of suggestions I would appreciate the help.

 

[MikeLynch]

Very old news Chemp -- in fact I think it's mentioned in the Manual. But in response to your questions, I believe the amount of shields you get for disbanding is somehow proportionate to the original cost of the unit. So you get more disbanding a Battleship than a Diplomat.

I have frequently "rush-built" non-Wonder improvements by setting a nearby hyper-fast-production city to build 1- or 2-turn units, then sending them to the city I need the improvement in, and disbanding them.

The question is, which is more wasteful -- using that technique, or Capitalizing in the hyper-fast-production city and simply incrementally-buying the city improvement in the other city?

 

[chemp]

I guess I had better clarify what my intent of my post was before I get railed on much more. I was not suggesting that others did not know about the “benefit” of disbanding. I guess I was wondering if any analysis had been done on if it is better in a “hyper-fast-production” city to rush build units and send them to another city to build improvements, or if it is better to use Capitalization in that city and get the coins instead? If anyone has some insight into that topic I would appreciate it and as always thanks for helping those who are still figuring out the intricacies of Civilization!

 

[MikeLynch]

No railing intended my friend; indeed I still to this day discover things taken for granted by many of my peers here.

I guess the short answer to your question is, whatever matters most to you: production or profit. Striking a balance between the two can be tricky.

Here's what I would do: go Fundy. Fundamentalism leaves me swimming in money so quickly that I can just buy any improvement that's important enough for me to consider the unit-disbanding technique.

But then, Fundamentalism IS tantamount to cheating.

 

[la fayette]

Disbanding an unit inside the city provides exactly half the building cost of the unit (a warrior, cost 10 shields, provides 5 shields when disbanded).
Some players make use of disbanding very early, when they haven't discovered Trade yet, and wish to build an early wonder wery quickly.
Later on, disbanding is no use, except getting rid of obsolete units which are not supported (thus saving 1 shield/turn).

 

[ElephantU]

As for the cost analysis, disbanding "saves" you half the shield cost, but using Capitalization gets you one gold per shield and most rush-buying requires between two (City Improvements) and four (Wonders and Spaceship parts). Units cost between 2 and 2.5, unless there is nothing in the Production Box to start with (a disband is a great seed for this), in which case they are double the full production cost (a Warrior costs 50gold).

Building caravans or freights is more efficient if you are going to use them to make Wonders or SpaceShip parts, but no more efficient if you are going to disband them for military units. The only other advantage to units over gold is that gold can be used in any city at any time (unless they are in Disorder), or even for bribing; units need to be moved to the city to disband, and the time cost of their movement may be a factor.

Before you get Trade, disbanding units is the only way to contribute shields from one city to another; if you have Writing you can build Diplomats that require no shield support, so you are not "using up" a shield while they are moving.

 

[funxus]

When there's an early wonder I'm about to lose (because my last caravan hasn't reached my city yet), and I'm only lacking about 50s to complete it, and also lack the last some gold to RB it, it sometimes helps to disband a few or all units in the city so that you can RB the wonder. Another good use is later on when the need for protection in a city isn't as big, or you have an extra defender you don't need, is to disband it to make an improvement much cheaper to buy (since an improvement bought from scratch is twice as expensive).

Don't worry about posting stuff others think obvious, I remember pointing out that celebrating cities had a different color in the advisor screen, and everybody knew about it...

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by funxus
When there's an early wonder I'm about to lose (because my last caravan hasn't reached my city yet), and I'm only lacking about 50s to complete it, and also lack the last some gold to RB it, it sometimes helps to disband a few or all units in the city so that you can RB the wonder. Another good use is later on when the need for protection in a city isn't as big, or you have an extra defender you don't need, is to disband it to make an improvement much cheaper to buy (since an improvement bought from scratch is twice as expensive).

Don't worry about posting stuff others think obvious, I remember pointing out that celebrating cities had a different color in the advisor screen, and everybody knew about it...

I never knew that about the celebration color!

Cost/benefit factors:
Value of disbanding = 1/2 * shields produced
Value of Capitalization = 1g/sheild produced

Cost of RB improvement (sheilds in box) 2g * sheilds
Cost of RB improvement (empty box) 4g * sheilds
cost of Rb unit - usually at least 2.5g/sheild if box not empty.

Value of demanded freight delivered to overseas foreign cities - between 2-50g/sheild from large democratic city!

Disbanding units can be helpful, especially when you're trying to seed the production box and reduce the purchase price of an improvement, although you have to factor in the sheilds wasted during production of the unit as well. Capitalization is usually the worst bargain.

But if it's available, delivering a freight to a foreign city that demands those goods can pay off far more than the value of disbanding the unit. (a 50s freight can often get you 500-1500g) Plus you get beakers too!

 

[ElephantU]

Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
cost of Rb unit - usually at least 2.5g/sheild if box not empty.

The cost for units is a MAXimum of 2.5g/shield, unless the box is not empty or you have to buy more than one row per IPRB round. If the row is partially filled it can go as low as 2g/shield (eg 4 shields costs only 8g).

 

[chemp]

Thanks everyone for the information it is greatly appreciated. I figured there would be those who would be able to direct me down the right road. Now I think I need to apply what I have been told to my next game.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by ElephantU
The cost for units is a MAXimum of 2.5g/shield, unless the box is not empty or you have to buy more than one row per IPRB round. If the row is partially filled it can go as low as 2g/shield (eg 4 shields costs only 8g).

If you have to RB from less than 20 up to 30s it costs more than 2.5. If you're RBing something more than 80s it costs more than 2.5. I realize that shields 1-4 and 6 are only 2g each, but as a general rule, I treat unit sheilds as if they cost at least 2.5g per. (Note that I weasel-worded my comment by saying they are "usually at least 2.5...")

My point was more about the relative value of the freights than the specific cost of a particular item.

 

[rponton]

Don't worry about posting stuff others think obvious, I remember pointing out that celebrating cities had a different color in the advisor screen, and everybody knew about it... [/B]

I didn't know that either!

Something I do for fun... Bribe crappy enemy units, then disband them to build killer units to smite thine enemy. Kind of a waste of money, but it has a certin ironic humor...

 

[Old n Slow]

Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
If you have to RB from less than 20 up to 30s it costs more than 2.5. ...

The cost of ten shields towards a unit (assuming a non empty box) is 25. Under the same conditions, the cost of twenty shields is 60 (25 + 25 + 10 surcharge). There are extra surcharges for larger lumps of shields purchased -- so it is cheaper to incrementally buy row by row of shields towards the final product than to bulk buy in one step.

In fact in the late game it is cheaper to buy a barracks from scratch (160 for 40 shields), switch to a spy (25 more) than to buy the spy (30 shields) from scratch. If I recall correctly, I think the spy from scratch costs 210, so the 30 shield lump looks to be about 105 (or a 25 + (25 + 10) + (25 + 10 + 20)).

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by Old n Slow


The cost of ten shields towards a unit (assuming a non empty box) is 25. Under the same conditions, the cost of twenty shields is 60 (25 + 25 + 10 surcharge). There are extra surcharges for larger lumps of shields purchased -- so it is cheaper to incrementally buy row by row of shields towards the final product than to bulk buy in one step.

Yes, yes, I know this. I forgot to put in the qualifier "after the 10s and 20s units are obsolete" Sorry about that. I'm not doing such a hot job explaining myself in this thread



As for rushing the 30 sheilds - The cost of RBin units is as follows: Last 4 sheilds in row 2g/s. 5th sheild from the end 3g/s, 6th sheild from end 2g, 7-10 are 3g. Then every additional row, each shield is one gold higher.

So the cost for the first row is
s cost
1 - 2 (+2)
2 - 4 (+2)
3 - 6 (+2)
4 - 8 (+2)
5 - 11 (+3)
6 - 13 (+2)
7 - 16 (+3)
8 - 19 (+3)
9 - 22 (+3)
10-25 (+3)

Every sheild in the second row is one higher so it's an additional 25+ (25+10) =60 etc. the 3rd row is 10 higher than the 2nd so 60+(25+20) = 105.

When you're out of 10s and 20s units, if you have an empty production box and don't have a unit to disband to seed it, it is definitely cheaper to rb a 40s improvement (temple, barracks) at 4g/s for 160, switch to diplomat incurring the 50% penalty and then buying the last 10s for 25g. Total cost 185. Cost buying the dip from scratch 105*2=210. In the D+2 succession game I actually disbanded a few temples late in the game in order to do this.

 

[Old n Slow]

A major reason why I'm a little up on this is some recent late games where I was swamped with cash. It was getting to the point where skipping a real time finger click was well worth the 10g of game funds -- especially where the resources were over 20K & coming in at 4-5K per turn. It would be spy, mech, howie & the ten shield city would pop out a stealth fighter the next turn -- helped get the 45 minute turns down to 15 minutes or so.

 

[HughMungus]

Originally posted by chemp
I guess I had better clarify what my intent of my post was before I get railed on much more. I was not suggesting that others did not know about the “benefit” of disbanding. I guess I was wondering if any analysis had been done on if it is better in a “hyper-fast-production” city to rush build units and send them to another city to build improvements, or if it is better to use Capitalization in that city and get the coins instead? If anyone has some insight into that topic I would appreciate it and as always thanks for helping those who are still figuring out the intricacies of Civilization!

I've done this to rush my wonder building. If I'm trying to build a wonder and I have some obsolete or soon-to-be obsolete units around I'll move them to the city building the wonder and disband them.