A Simple Poll: Pyramids or Colossus?

[Thunderfall]

It really depends on whether the level is on deity or not. I would go for Pyramids if it'd not on deity, and Colossus on Deity.

 

[shadowdale]

Well I agree with you about the level dependence, I also think that there is a big difference on which wonder you, in either MP or Single player!!!

I will always go for the pyramids in a single player game - even on deity - as they help me through out the entire game, but I would go for the Colossus on any high level MP game, as it helps me get some extra science so I can get the unites that I REALLY need in those games. The reason I say high level is because the difference between having and not having the Colossus in a prince level 2x MP game isn't all that big, just build a few extra cities and your still in the game.

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We are species 8472 - assimilations attempts are futile - the weak shall perish

No wait we are species 5618 and we got beer...... don't harm us!!!!!!

 

[TrailblazingScot]

WHAT?????
Pyramids at any level!!! I have never played any level below diety...I always start games on the hardest setting I can make progress with, in civ2 this was diety cos I played civ to death.

GET PYRAMIDS
This combined with the wise procurement of the hanging gardens allows extremely large cities very rapidly in a monarchy. The cheapness of the wonder compared to building graneries and the lack of any maintainence needed is another boon! With hanging gardens the extra pop can be kept happy easily and entertainers can keep the unhappiest cities happy if enough surplus food is made.

Another thing is that the enemy A.I/human prosper VERY well if they have pyramids in my experience, a good reason to deny it.

AS for the colossus providing massive trade the extra population gained by the rapid pop.growth afforded by the graneries in every city give me the extra trade and production I need to win every time.


I'd swap ya the colossus 4 the pyramids ANYDAY!

 

[greenie]

Not much of a choice. I always go for the Colossus first, for the trade bonus. But I usually build the Pyramids later too, but am not too upset if I miss them. The Granary can always be paid for with Adam Smiths later in the game (which I guarantee I get)

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- Greenie

" Let us take by
cunning what we would
take by force"

 

[Håkon]

Pyramids - though I never get them (I am a very poor player). Colossus only work in one city, remember? It might be very good when you play Super Science City (for the trade), but I never play SSC (that's probably why I'm so poor

).

Alan Nicoll stated that the Pyramids was nice on Deity level against the computer. WRONG. On Deity level, you get MASSIVE unhappiness when your civilization grows fast, and then you need the Hanging Gardens. Colossus is nice on Deity because it gives you more trade and thus more luxuries.

CornMaster - you said something like this

I don't understand what they (Granaries) do

Granaries helps for growing your civilization. When your city grows by one population point, then only HALF of the food storage is depleted when you have a Granary. When you don't have a Granary, your city lose ALL of the food storage when it grows, thus using up more time.

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"Go to the place that should not be named with your beliefs, Miriam Godwinson! All your New Jerusalem are belong to US!!"

Academician Provost Zakharov - "For I Have Tasted the Fruit"

 

[KnightOfNi]

1) I choose pyramids because it gives you free granaries so you needn't bother with building them any more.

2) Polls so far :
Pyramids first : 12
Colossus first : 8
No preference or both : 2
These wonders suck : 1

3) I suggest you refine your original question, Andu. Do you mean in a single or multiplayer, do you think the level makes a difference.

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You don't know you're falling until you crash

 

[addiv]

Pyramids is the first wonder I always build in a game because a granary in every city is very good (especially because I always build a lot of cities). Pyramids is not a really good wonder but in the old age it's one of the best. The argument to build pyramids because you won't have to pay maintain costs then is not very strong because you can solve that problem by building Adam Smith's (which is btw the second BEST wonder in the game, after mike's).
Colossus gives hardly any extra trade because it is always built in the early age, so in a small city.

 

[Magnus]

Colossus for me - although it is not my favorite extremely early wonder (Great Wall!). I love to build the Colossus and then trade with it from every city in my kingdom - the trade boost is phenomenal and you don't have to share it with other civs! (thanks to Andu for that little trick).

Regarding the Pyramids - I hate them - I never EVER build granaries because I don't want my cities growing too fast early on (too much unhappiness) and when I DO want them growing fast later on after happiness improvements are in place - I just do the WLK days while in Republic or Democracy.

 

[Dogberry_Old]

In MP play ( is there any other way ? ) .. if I build any early Wonders at all .. it is frequently the Colossus. If suckered into a x2 game... the Pyramids are a real pain. I like the Hanging Gardens best.. but then again so does everyone else. I usually don't worry about Wonders until a certain stage of development & in a certain kind of game. After that.. they all get built in a turn or two.

The Colossus.. with some trade, a harbor & some sea squares can really pump out the science & the cash.

The very best early Wonder in MP play ( altho not duels ) is Marco Polo... period !

One of these days .. I plan to "win" a game without building any Wonders at all.. just to see if it can be done.

Dog

[This message has been edited by Dogberry (edited June 18, 2001).]

 

[Magnus]

YES!!! Dogberry, Marco Polo's rocks in MP! In fact, I nearly always get the wonder because the first advance I go for right from the start is Trade.

 

[EndryArden]

In my opinion, neither one of these Wonders is extremely advantageous. However, if I had to choose one, it would be the Pyramids hands down. This Wonder allows for more citizens more quickly, which not only adds to your final score, but also puts those citizens to work on the surrounding terrain which adds to more production anyway. If you were to build Colossus you gain more production right away, but is only a quick solve, one which will expire as soon as you (or worse: someone else) discovers flight. As you can see, the Pyramids never expire.

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"Let the moment go, don't forget it for a moment though..." -Stephen Sondheim

 

[Kev]

I try to get both in most games that I play, but if I could only pick one I would have to go with the majority so far and pick the Pyramids.

First, I like to expand rapidly on any level, and the Pyramids allows these smaller cities to grow quickly. A city will not "celebrate" until it is size 3, and having granaries everywhere is nice to get them there quickly. It also allows me to pump out settlers without taking too large of a hit to my growth as well.

Also, there are times when you have to build a city in a less-than-optimal site, and that city may only reach size 3 or 4 without any land improvements and have a zero food surplus. Well, with the Pyramids, you can build a settler here and work in "starvation mode" for a while with the extra food in your food box. It is a nice luxury to have.

Finally, I know that cities can grow and grow quickly while in "celebration mode". However, within a Monarchy and even a Republic this means bumping the luxuries pretty far up with your taxes and science taking a hit for a few turns. I usually find that with the Pyramids I may be able to hold off on celebrations for a while with my increased growth.

I also think to myself: "which is the one I would be better able to compensate for if I lost the race to build it?"

If the AI gets the Pyramids, that civ can become a pain in the neck later on as it will grow its cities pretty quickly. Also, the AI loves to build graneries, and having the Pyramids they may build something useful instead.

If the AI gets the Colossus, it will undoubtedly make very little use of it and fall behind in tech anyway. It will also give me a city that I can send some caravans to to get some extra bonus.

Therefore, I regard the Pyramids as a higher priority than the Colossus because of what it can do for my civ and because of what I can deny a competitive civ. That being said, I do think that the top 3 VERY early wonders are Pyramids, Colossus and Hanging Gardens and could increase or decrease in importance depending on level and map size.

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Diplomacy - the art of
saying "Good Doggie"
until you can find a rock

[This message has been edited by Kev (edited June 18, 2001).]

 

[Rexx]

Just build entertainer-wonders like Hanging Gardens, Oracle, Mich's Chapel, Bach. They are the most important wonders.

 

[Andu Indorin]

Originally posted by KnightOfNi:
3) I suggest you refine your original question, Andu. Do you mean in a single or multiplayer, do you think the level makes a difference.

Actually, for a simple poll, the responses to the question reveal much about different styles of play. While most will agree that the Happiness wonders (Gardens, Chapel, Cathedral, etc.) are of critical importance, the choice between Colossus and Pyramids can almost define an individual's style of play.

If a player spends most of the game in the Monarchy --> Communism/Fundamentalism style of play, the pyramids is not only the logical choice, it is a critical necessity in order to maintain growth rates. And in this style of play, the full benefits of the Colossus tend to get lost. Likewise, if you employ the Super Growth/ICS "strategy", then the Pyramids are a great help.

If a player spends most of the game in the Republic --> Democracy style of play, the pyramids become more of a convenience than a necessity, since "We Love the Consul/Prez/PM" day will guarantee appropriate growth. And in this style of play, the full benefits of the Colossus can be fully exploited. Likewise, if you employ a strategy that emphasizes full economic development of 15 or so cities, then the Colossus is the way to go. (This tends to be my approach; "Give me fully developed economy of 12 to 16 cities, and I'll give the world!")

One thing about the Colossus, however, is that its full benefits really only kick in during the mid-game; that is, it is when your cities reach a population exceeding eight and have trade routes connected to the Colossus city that the Colossus begins to effect trade in other cities. Which is to say, properly exploiting the benefits of the Colossus requires forethought and strategic planning; while the Pyramids requires little or no planning to enjoy its benefits.

As for single versus MP play: while I've never played MP, I suspect that an intelligent human opponent will tend to force a player toward the Monarchy --> Communism/Fundamentalism style of play; ergo, the Pyramids would probably be more useful than the Colossus.

 

[Sukenis]

To be honest I can not remember getting the collosus (I am sure I have though). I normally just got for the pyramids without thinking.

 

[Fenrisulven]

It seems I have a kind of odd strategy in compere to most others. I don't build any "happy"-wonders… or well. Maybe I do. But I don't priority them. This is what I do (notice that I always play rather big maps): My first goal is to discover republic. Then I do everything in order to discover democracy so I can build the Statue of Liberty and change to fundamentalism. Anyway, I build settlers. That almost the only thing I do until I get to democracy. I usually only protect my cities with a phalanx. Nothing more. Then I set them to build settlers. This way they don't grow, but my empire do. And if some city grows to fast, then I change them to produce more shields instead. This makes me pretty vulnerable. And I often lose a city from time to time. But then I just change the production from settlers to legionaries. And soon the city is my again. Anyway. Then, when I get to democracy and build the Statue of Liberty and change to fundamentalism, it's first now I really begin to grow. While my enemies have something like 10-15 cities with an average population of 9 in every city I have 45 cities, with an average population of 3. But now I have 50 settlers who all stand ready to improve the land. And a couple of decades later they still have like 15 cities, now with an average size of 12. What do I have? 55 cities, with an average population of 15. At the time I usually research Automobile I have at least over a hundred engineers. It's the size that counts. An empire which might look weak, but which have a lot of cities, can just a few decades later be one of the biggest and most powerful. I don't know, maybe this tactic would lead straight to hell in an mp game. But I have never played civ in multiplayer, so I don't know. How long time wouldn't that take? A usually game takes like a weak, at least. So how long wouldn't a multiplayer game take? But in single player, or what to call it, this tactic works fine. Deity is just too simple…

The Pyramids or the Colossus? It depends a lot on which kind of tactic you use. I mean, it isn't so weird that I don't like the colossus. I mean in the beginning I only have little puny cities with almost no trade. So the colossus wouldn't help that much. And when I could use it, then it expires. Instead the pyramids are very useful. Because as fast as I reach fundamentalism I want my cities to grow as fast as possible. In the last game I played many of my cities had an extra food supply of 15-25 food every turn. And with the pyramids they grew very very fast.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

At lower and mid levels Colossus is # one (as the foundation of the SSC)& Pyramids #2. At higher levels its hagning gardens is # 1 (you really really need that one happy guy per city) & colussus # 2.

 

[Bud2998]

I go with the pyramids. I ALWAYS build the pyramids first. Although, it really depends on level in my opinion. On emperor or deity, I go for hanging gardens, THEN pyramids. It king or lower pyramids first. Free granaries in EVERY city. With the collosus only one city benefits and expires whereas the pyramids don't. The high population speeds science, trade, etc. and the collosus only gives extra trade for one city and does expire, therefore in conclusion, the pyramids are better. Although, that's just my opinion.

 

[starlifter]

Gee, it seems many are sold on the hanging gardens... I play deity, and find other higher priorities than the HG in almost every game.

The one early wonder which makes a huge difference for any large empire-builder is hands down the Pyramids.

Both production and growth are slowed without the Pyramids, plus you pay gold every turn for a granery, if you build one instead. That automatic food reserve is great, esp. early in the game. You also can't beat it if you are producing a lot of settlers/engineers.

The Colossus is essential for a SSC. I began playing the GOTM 4 today, and have Colossus in my SSC. The trade routes with each city are about 50-80% more... so much so that it is worthwhile for every city to have at least one or two routes with it, esp now that it is size 24. So the colossus (if properly used) can be a HUGE benefit to the entire civilization, if you use trade. The Colossus city usually celebrates and grows rapidly under republic and/or Democracy, too.

So for a small empire, Colossus is the bargin. In a large empire, like most people play in most games, the real value is the Global wonder... THE PYRAMIDS!

 

[Omega the Great]

The Pyramids are better when it comes to playing the game but the Collossus has better music to it.

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Omega the Great