A Thought Experiment

[knighterrant81]

So here we sit, turn 112. Currently in a Dark Age (running twilight valor), government is Monarchy. I've just managed to snatch Malmo and Halmstad from Kristina here. These two cities (and the four other Swedish cities) are way outside my Ix Mutal border (6 tiles from the capital).

If I were playing a generic Civ, versus a generic Civ, I would probably keep going until I had conquered everything (or the AI massed Crossbows). However, Ix Mutal and Nobel Prize make this a bit more interesting.

The first way to think about this. Ix Mutal = anything outside of 6 tiles isn't worth keeping. You get a 15% penalty just for having them! However, I submit that's the wrong way to think about it. Vilnius is generating about 8p/3g/2s/3c right now. I get a 15% "tax" on these yields. After that 15%, it is all profit/surplus. So basically, a city outside of my Ix Mutal radius is only worth 85% of what it is worth to another Civ. 0.85 is a lot better than 0 though! So my first impression is that it is likely worth it, assuming I don't really need to invest much more into military to take these cities (Kristina is sitting at 7 military strength, but Crossbows are already a thing so waiting for Gunpowder and Bombards might be better if I decide I want to wipe her off the map).

Nobel Prize is another reason I'm considering not pulling the plug on Kristina. I could win a few Physics prizes over the course of the game, and those would be nice little boosts. Having a trading partner and not having to put a lot of gold/production into wiping her out is also helpful. Overall, I don't see this as having much of an actual impact, but it is a nice extra fun thing later in the game even if winning prizes is mostly done through autopilot.

What would you do? Thoughts?

 

[Bibor]

Is there a specific reason why you went after Kristina in the first place?

 

[Aurelesk]

Is there a specific reason why you went after Kristina in the first place?

Does he need a reason? Let's say that Kristina's expansionist propensity a few thousand kilometers away of the Mayan territories was not well received. Plus: a lone Swedish Scout was seen wondering around aimlessly not far from the border. This is a threat to the security of the Mayan. Lady Six Sky had no choice but to declare war on Kristina due to her deceitful actions.


As you said, even if the Mayan find the cities less valuable when they are far from their Capital, they are far from worthless. Basicly, they will roughly need 5 cities to equal the yield of 4 cities from other civilization. I need to check this, but I think the -15% malus do not work for Tourism or Great People point. Also, early conquered cities might need some works to be functional: foreign cities have Housing from fresh water but yours from farms. Conquered cities might have some Housing issue if they have neither an Aqueduct nor some farms, needing to invest more for less value. Plus: their Campus could yield nothing because they will be around Moutains and Reef. So: is it worth it? Yes, bad cities are better than no cities. And the Mayan just have below average cities outside of the core, not really bad cities. But it works the other way around: you could also create cities that will not work properly for foreign invader, even if you are not aiming to lose a city in the first place.
Due to the way the Mayan cities grow, it is better to rely on founding your own cities than conquest for expansion, but you can do both.

All depends of what you want. Do not forget that conquering foreign Capital will face a -5 Diplomatic Favor per turn. If you are aiming for a Domination victory, you might want to delay the capture of Capitals for more leverage on the Congress matters, or at least save some pocket money as -5 DF is roughly equal to 30 flat Gold from the AI. So you could cripple all the opponents by conquering and boxing them on a corner, and end the job when you are about to win.

 

[MrRadar]

Hm, given your strenght and hers, I would probably take those three cities with the Ö in there names asap, and then gave back Örebro in a peace deal. She would be able to dedicate the rest of her life to organizing the Nobel Prize competitions.

Cities outside 6 tiles may not become pillars of your empire, but they can still do the dishes and hang the laundry to dry. And when they are already there, why not to take/keep them? Linköping has an aqueduct and Göteborg has some farms, so housing should be OK.

Stockholm has Machu Picchu, but as your core does not seem to be very mountainous and you want Nobel Prizes, mhmph, well, maybe Kristina can keep it.

 

[knighterrant81]

Is there a specific reason why you went after Kristina in the first place?

Honestly, she was getting annoying. Those two cities were settled pretty aggressively and I had been eyeing that territory. My area for expansion was getting a bit curtailed. She was also matching me in Science for longer than I wanted so I wanted to take her down a peg, and she had no military to speak of.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

Leave Orebrö, or just take every city of hers. Orebrö likely would flaunt to loyalty pressure at some point anyway. That's what I would do

 

[Victoria]

Loot her cities then give them back... for next time.

the -15% malus do not work for Tourism or Great People point.

Indeed... and with a little bit of amenity management it is only 5%, especially with luxes next to the city helping.

I just do not get this “I must not go outside of my ring” complex.

 

[Aurelesk]

I just do not get this “I must not go outside of my ring” complex.

I can only speak for myself, but maybe some people feel the same.

I kind of dislike to expand or conquer. There is a lot of micromanaging to do (a lot of builder, a lot of planning for district, a lot of army managing...). It might be an illusion, but I feel the game is shorter (by time, not by turn) if I limit my expansion and my conquests.

The Mayan was presented as "the tall science civilization", quickly followed by a picture on how to maximise the number of cities in a 6-tiles radius. I found myself to expand way more than usually. This sudden "over-expansion" (which might feel like a limited expansion for most players) triggers the AI into war. The war leads to conquest and I found myself to have new cities in my empire but outside of my ring.

Even if keeping the city is worth it, no matter what, I don't really want to keep it. And I feel this way because I feel like I am betraying my playstyle (I am already overexpand and managing an army) and the Mayan playstyle. But, let's face it: keeping it is the obvious better choice, but it is extra "work".

Yeah. I am a lazy bloke.

 

[Victoria]

I feel like I am betraying my playstyle

On most maps I feel like I am betraying my playstyle because I have to adapt so much