A very late ALC attempt - III. Catherine

[lymond]

yes, he could, but that is a lot of wasted turns... granted his settling pattern is a bit different from mine..and he would need a road to get trade route to my spot, but it was only 2 tiles of road from gold city for me.

 

[Choeimok]

Neighbor settled his second city exactly 2000 BC, 5 turns after I built Novgorod. He was dallying by presumably building Archers.

"Now" was now at which point? Right now, I actually haven't played any further than 725 BC, actually. Not sure which warrior you refer to, though...? The one on the plains hill up north? It's between sharing the cow and having more coast and one less food-eating tile there. Haven't quite decided yet.
The problem with the Clam city is that I have to choose between it and the fish, and (coast) fish + PH city tile seems more appealing than Clam + regular hill city tile.

I must have missed that part of your previous post, since you warned of exactly that happening.

Gold/Copper city: even with 0 food? Rostov's placement was supposed to make the best of the poor food situation down there. I have to admit that while I thought of maybe putting some fishing villages into the ice, I never really even considered making one between that eastern peninsula and the ice city.

Spoiler Turn 105 / 250 BC :

Confucianism is founded in SP - I would have expected Novgorod as the largest non-capital city, but this is okay. On the Shaka border, however...
Unsettling, but some of the guys actually returned into the fog next turn.

Speaking of fog, when talking about IW earlier I was meaning the possibility of Iron in his foggy tiles...

... or unimproved Iron sources. It was kind of obvious that Bulawayo settled in that spot probably had some resource...
He converts to Confu next turn and finishes the Mine.

Doesn't take long for the first Impi to be spotted. I'm shifting towards military production as well. His weird flat power graph from earlier...

... is a thing of the past - that guy definitely is plotting now.

Starting to settle the north - I was already anxious about this settler getting sniped near Yaro (which has an axe whip-ready) on the DOW turn, and that was before he had Iron.

Ready to chop 4 forests next turn...
... except I messed up, because of both the river and the middle forest not actually being pre-chopped.
So from the 2 forests, Oracle went from 19 to 12, 4 won't be sufficient. Short on time due to the impending DOW.
I also backfill the easternmost spot this turn.


https://i.imgur.com/01hRKfU.jpg[/IMG
Not as smoothly executed as one might have, but I still got the wonder, and am not having an easy choice between CS and Philo... Irrigation spread is nice, but I went for Philo as the AI avoids teching it when Tao is gone, making Lib easier.

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/q8CLrKG.jpg
Tao is founded in Rostov - Yaroslavl would have been the better spot, as it might flip Shaka's city next to it that way - Rostov is only in its second ring of culture right now, the tile stolen from Shaka next to the iron is actually taken by Moscow's fourth ring instead.
SP can steal the Iron in 17 turns, which is going to be late... Also, religious spread in Shakaland is giving him culture... Missionary will go to Moscow.

Christianity is founded 300 BC and someone gets a GSpy. GWall and Stonehenge were built by different guys, and Stonehenge guy probably has a religion (#1 in culture)... but no shrine yet, so maybe there was no prophet yet. Strange because SH was built slightly earlier. I think none of these guys are PHI though.

Moscow grew to size 7 and hates me, but I'm just 2 turns from Monarchy...

Monarchy is in - I see no reason not to adopt it right away. But... do I also want Pacifism (with Confu, since it has better spread than Tao)? The 2 civics, along with my building of defensive units don't really suit together that well, yet +100% GP production would certainly be nice... But it's also an extra turn of Anarchy, won't do me any good diplomatically (Shaka already plotting, unlikely anyone else will convert to it) and, well, the upkeep thing. So not sure.

The realm right now.

- Taoist Temple in Moscow is arguable, but I need all the I can get, and maybe won't be in HR all game...? This was a bit of an impulsive reaction before realizing I have the money to quickly finish Monarchy, and then I didn't unselect it.
- Confu Monastery in SP in hopes to steal the iron quicker. Haven't spotted any other metal units than Impis yet... 14 turns to border pop, Bulawayo has no religion.
- Other cities are mostly still concerned with getting their basic infrastructure up or helping building units. I did get Barracks in some places (Mos, Nov, and now Rostov). Vladivostok and Yaroslavl could use the whip (in fact, I just whip them now)
- Yekaterinburg finally finished that fort...
- 2 Settlers still missing for Rice/Cow/Fish site and that filler city. Maybe I'll drop one more in the ice between Bulawayo and Yeka. I kind of dropped of the settler production for a while there, being afraid of the DOW (as mentioned) - now I have a road over there though - I'll probably build the next settler in SP right after the Monastery.

Shaka's graph... actually went a bit flatter again. Did he stop plotting now? I also haven't seen many new units in a while from him... I'm confused. Units are still nice since I'm about to switch into HR.

Unless he has another stack in the Ulundi fog, this seems not too bad and can probably be held off with ~3 units defending a city.

Research-wise, I have started on Agriculture, just to get it out of the way, help SP and Rostov with growing and prepare the eventual settling of the rice city.
[/IMG]

 

[Choeimok]

Could he get the wb to the fish by building a fort on the ice tile or doesn't it work like that?

yes, he could, but that is a lot of wasted turns... granted his settling pattern is a bit different from mine..and he would need a road to get trade route to my spot, but it was only 2 tiles of road from gold city for me.

Yeah, it took 15 turns, plus getting the worker there... I sailed a Workboat over there from Novgorod, 400 years later settled Orenburg on the tundra forest peninsula with a fish in its second ring and had the workboat head over there instead, still improving that Fish earlier than it would have improved the one in Yekaterinburg.
About the trade route though: I still don't get why Novgorod got a sea trade route with Moscow/SP earlier - they are both on the long river that ends in the small lake near Yekaterinburg...

 

[lymond]

No, you could have settled Clam 1S. Only one place Fish/tundra could go.. Both cities could share cows as needed, but more importantly clam city could have used it earlier. (good settler production there)

With respect to the warrior I was referring to ice/fish city down there (or Yeka). .In the earlier pic there was a warrior there that I used for reference. But in much earlier advice I had told you to settle there as well. I think Yeka settle was bad, and also city could have gone above Gold there.

Teching Agri seems kinda silly right now...all that tech OF going into worthless tech

no clue what you are referring too with regard to Novgorod...If you mean Yeka instead it would be connected via river/lake..that is obvious

happyiness? didn't I see you tech Monarchy?

 

[Choeimok]

Yes, that's why the temple is a bit questionable - I just didn't really want to cancel it after already investing hammers.

Novgorod is the GLH city, which has no obvious naval connection to my two older cities, but got a trade route anyway.


Agriculture: I don't actually have enough overflow to complete it outright at 0% (and I am out of money) - so I'm not wasting any of it, and it's not like Agri doesn't provide me anything... Rostov and Petersburg both could use some farms. The idea was to quickly finish it while getting some gold I can then put into probably Metal Casting (-> Machinery -> IW -> Compass -> Optics -> CS)

City placement: Outside of paying more attention next game, I can't really change it now. I did consider sharing the Cow between Vladi and Orenburg earlier, but decided for this... partially because it gets rid of a desert rather than a grassland, I think, also because it doesn't waste the northern coast.

 

[Choeimok]

Spoiler Turn 149 / 780 AD :

Lots of religion spread the turn after I get back into the game. Unfortunately, the city I want to take the iron away from now as Confucianism. Tao would actually have been good, this not so much.

Shaka looks like he wants to settle 1 SE of here...? Maybe closer? Don't even think about stealing my fish! I also can see all of Shaka's land tiles now thanks to culture.
First Swordsman us spotted the next turn.

Mids are built 100 BC. I don't know by whom, but the GW guy has ToA.

He went for HBR and is standing on my border. DOW next turn? If it's only 3 units, I won't even be that afraid. I also marked my irrigation chain just so I won't cottage these tiles or something.

He actually walked away the next turn, and then declared. I see a Chariot near my Axeman-defended Smolensk, that's bad. I can't whip a Spearman at size 3 with no previous hammers invested.

Smolensk falls, the symbolic defense provided by the scout doesn't help. Stupid Galley... East doesn't look so bad, I outnumber him near SP.

Loss of the second axe was unfortunate. Next job is to pillage his metal and retake my city.
I switched tech to IW because Swords might actually be helpful here.

Shaka tries to be sneaky, but I have a Spearman. I do have Iron... in the Yaroslavl desert.

Got a General. Not sure what to do with him since I don't really have a stack. I'll leave him around until I have a suitable Medic candidate.

Took a while - I finally manage to pillage this metal. He had quite a few units in Bulawayo... Horse was pillaged a while ago.

The same turn, Smolensk is retaken. Shaka still refuses to talk. He has a GS in Ulundi.

Krasnoyark is settled. Don't have a WB ready. Machinery next turn, but I still haven't gotten a worker back to improve the iron. Shaka destroys my sheep with a spy and still refuses to talk.

He finally throws the towel on his attack after suiciding a few more units somewhere and gives me Construction +50 Gold (his original suggestion was Alpha+Archery+50 Gold).
I got another General, I'll probably settle the guy somewhere.

As I'm shortly before Optics, some jerk steals Monarchy (he keeps spamming me with spies right now, mostly destroying tile improvements). Hmm, I have no idea. North still has a worker shortage. Shaka has his metal back, but his power rating actually dropped compared to mine since end of war.

The exploration era starts. This land looks unsettled...

Except, uh, not. Some pleasant people on this map.
Ragnar is already plotting.

Neither of them are particularly advanced, neither of them have any unusual city names and neither of them founded Judaism.

Could do this to keep these boys busy. That's kind of expensive though.

I have a big army (junk units though), but my REX lead has kind of dropped off, the annoying war didn't really help. It could be Ragnar who has more land than me, could be someone unmet.

Plan: Circumnavigation and Liberalism. One notable thing is that no Aesthetics wonders are built yet, so maybe I can still try for the Music guy? (THG and MoM are gone).

I can still try for Colossus or failgold in Novgorod, since I have Copper. Just need to finish the Forge first - still lacking lots of buildings because of the war. None of these warmongers have Metal Casting, Ragnar is trying to research it.

I also spotted some ocean tiles with yield with the second Caravel - could be that there's more AIs over there.

Not so great turnset, the defensive war and temporary loss of Smolensk really bogged me down (if only Shaka had gotten the Tao spread in that iron city instead, this way he just barely managed to hold against his first culture ring against SP's fourth... ). Global tech pace seems really slow though.

 

[Choeimok]

Spoiler Turn 181 / 1210 AD :

Well, there goes that bribe idea. Good, but bad - they're now busy, but I'll be taking diplo hits from declining this crap. Ragnar is still my most potential buddy as a HR lover so far.

Great Library is built 860 AD, and I'm starting to doubt the possible Aesthetics detour again...
SoZ goes about 2 turns later.

Finally stole Shaka's metal. I'll pillage it just to be safe... I also adopt Bureaucracy, seems worth the turn of Anarchy.

Finally found someone else - China? Could also be Babylon...

It is China. He has the Mids and no religion - could be isolated.

Shaka's buildin' it up again. I'm not concerned, as I have Maceman tech. Would be annoying though.

He also has the wall - Qin is the wonder guy. Not very surprising, it's Qin.

I'm not sure why, but these guys do not know each other. Shouldn't the culture be able to see 2 tiles further...? Or maybe it's just one and the second comes from Optics.

North of Ragnar, the Judaism founder. Easily the most advanced AI so far, and even moderately-sized.

Got a map from him - that's a scary amount of land! Ragnar hasn't fully settled it yet...
Genghis had at some point lost 2 cities, but seems to have taken back one.

Found the missing AI - the Buddhism founder. She adds Islam to her religion collection a turn or two later.

Got Nat for Taj - Liberalism is at no threat, so PP next. Maybe I should go for Astro instead, but I do have a fair amount of Towns.

Got this Merchant and not sure what to do with him. Shaka's buildup is getting worrisome. Ragnar and Genghis make peace after Genghis recaptures Samarqand, I think that was the first city he lost. Ragnar keeps Tiflis... and I have no idea where these places are.

Wang is the only decent techer here (I gave him Optics + some money for Feuda+Calendar), but Isabella got Music. Ragnar might be the greatest threat with his huge land and Fin trait. Qin,Isabella and Shaka are still isolated.

The realm. I finally got rid of the "Farm" markers now. Shaka is really annoying with his spies, but not worth killing right now either...
If he DoWs again, his stack will probably attack in the north, where my troop concentration is also kind of low... hoping for his capapults to slow him down enough to bring over some guys from SP to Yaroslavl. Smolensk has 5 units so I don't see a big Galley threat.

Graphs, not looking too bad. Somehow Genghis and Ragnar barely seem to have wasted any troops in their war.

Demographics, not as favorable as they used to be. GNP is #1 at 100%, suffers significantly without my beaker multipliers. Don't have a lot of markets. Need to build more wealth, if only these damn cities stopped being unhappy or unhealthy all the time, so I'm building Harbors, Temples...

Apart from the Merchant (Caravel him to Madrid, which is the largest city at 15?), I also still have that General around...

 

[Gumbolt]

yeah you are losing your grip on this game badly. Do you actually have a plan to win this game?? Temples, aqueducts and harbours don't win you games. I rarely build any of them.

Do you have a great people strategy?? Not clear how many you have had so far?? Getting great merchants from GLH city suggests you are not running specialists?

If you are planning a conquest win you need galleons and cuirs. Cuirs to take out Shaka frst.

Farming plains tiles and workshops but no clear plan around your worker use.

24 turns for TM wonder?? really?

Overall there is a lot of land on this map so that ups the difficulty here. You need to be much more focused. Without a save hard to know what else is going on.

 

[Fippy]

Would only need a bit focused army buildup of Maces + Siege for Shaka, he does have plenty old stuff still and nothing that could counter Maces outside cities.
Taking his cities + teching Astro easily looks like the best plan (you still have GLH), all your cities should get Astro routes with so many known AIs.
I would not spend time on any other techs before i have Astro here.

 

[Choeimok]

It's a light case of the Renaissance Coma
This happens to me quite often, completing whatever I was focusing on in the late medieval / early Renaissance (here, Optics and exploration to break semi-isolation) and then just playing along for a while while vaguely teching towards the next era, in the Industrial age there's usually something new to do. Of course Renaissance is a good era for wars, but sometimes I'm just not really convinced to go to war - I'm still not sure if Shaka's land is worth the trouble and I don't like sea-based wars before Combustion. It takes a long time to build a sufficient fleet of Galleons, and they are quite slow. (well, at least Genghis is kind of close - but often you have 10 or 15 sea tiles distance...)

I wasn't really planning to go to war before Rifles - can't get cuirs without Astronomy*, and even then it would be expensive, and Mace vs LB is... an okay matchup, but not great. With his poor land and lack of metal as long as I manage to control that tile, time is only playing to my advantage. After that, I would have to carry these Rifles into an Astro war though, else it's, again, not really worth it. Don't have Engineering and I'm not really sure if I want to do the detour from the renaissance techs I'm going after right now. Suicide cats are probably worse than CR Maces against Longbows unless it's a particularly big stack, but with settling the general, I could at least give them bombard. Not sure where, the closest thing to a production city I have is Petersburg, which is still kind of small (Shaka's constant spy spam doesn't really help, he destroyed the sheep pasture like 3 times already... no idea where he gets all those spy points from)

Taj... I was expecting it to be a bit after, maybe 17 turns, not 24. Still, I have a monopoly on Nationalism (and nobody has anything worth trading it away for) and might as well...? Intention is to use the GA to get Lib and switch into some new civics (FR+maybe FS).


I've actually considered going for late culture (with Sushi and maybe CreCon) instead of space - if only the map didn't have 3 psychos, a notorious backstabber, a zealot backstabber and ... I think even Wang can declare at pleased...? Might be faster than space - Astro should give me a at least one other religion, up to 3. I do have a considerable amount of seafood for a map not called Big/Medium & Small or Archipelago.
The Merchant would come in handy there, even if it's a long time to save him. Not sure how it compares to space. Don't really want to go for a military victory - if I do take out Shaka (he does have 3 more seafood)+1 AI (probably Mongolia due to proximity+backwardness+unpopularity+quite green land with small border to Ragnar, from what I can see), I'd rather just sit on the land until hitting some peaceful condition than slogging through 30 more cities.

Problem of course: Even with those 2 Psychos out, the game is still full of rather untrustworthy people. And of course I could already have pumped a lot of culture until here (but that's what Sushi is for)



* This is of course another question: When do I actually want Astro? Lib it? Self-tech and Lib something towards Rifling instead, maybe Steel if Wang is that slow? It's definitely a big priority just for the trade routes alone, but all these ways have their appeal.

 

[Fippy]

Trade routes are the best part of Astro, but you can also trade Resis with all AIs when you get it
That usually solves all happy or health problems in your cities, and so you should almost never build temples, Aquas or similar buildings for minor gains before Astro (but focus on getting there).

No other techs offers similar benefits on those map types, you ask when do i want it..there's only 1 possible reply:
Asap, no delays, ideally helped by GS bulb.
It's important understanding that, you *never* want to delay Astro in this situation with even having GLH.
Not for builds (instead of wealth, running specialists for bulb..), not for other techs.

 

[lymond]

yeah you are losing your grip on this game badly. .

lol...I started noticing this as well after maybe the 3rd turnset or so. I just started getting lost with regards to what Choe was trying to do, plus he seems to not take much advice. No offense, Choe..maybe that is of your own choosing and not sure if you are doing this to learn as well as just to play. Still can probably win this game regardless, but not win an awards...ha

 

[Gumbolt]

@ Lymond - rather be honest than just pat someone on the back and pretend a game is going well.

Yes astronomy now!
The only Ai to worry about is Shaka. Unless you get him to pleased he will keep declaring. He is very weak.
Don't be afraid to whip away population to get units quickly with slavery.
Not planning wars before rifles is crazy. The Ai are so backward here and you just want to let them gobble up the land? There is a huge amount of land here. You can't afford to sit back after playing the early game reasonably well. GLH/Oracle should normally give you a big advantage. You took a 1000+ beaker tech from it.
Culture is possible here but you only have 2 religions. You would need commerce for a culture slider. That or 5-6+ great artists? Lots of planning would be needed. Shaka's capital would make an amazing G artist farm.

Overall scrap a lot of these pointless builds and decide what you want to acheive next. Take out shaka's core cities now and astronomy? Slavery and whip army. Then focus on culture. A few pults and mace will wipe out his defences. Let his stack leave the city and kill it in the field.

Can you post save??

 

[ChocoGwaja]

This map is quite ugly, but you are not doing too bad!

Your first priority, in my not-so-knowledgeable-opinion, should be to eliminate Shaka ASAP. Just look at that capital of his! I see myself building a GP farm there, and putting in the Globe and the National Epic

I wouldn't want Shaka to leverage all that extra food into whipping more of his annoying soldiers just to try to kill you. Better take it for yourself.

Yeah, harbors and temples shouldn't be your priorities right now. I'd whip out some troops and beat him up. He is weak!

And like Fippy said, Astro is the top research priority right now. Hello Great Lighthouse and all that juicy trade routes and resource trades!

After you take out Shaka, I reckon you can even win this game by going to space without much problem.