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Um, that was changed so that it give exp to random units that you own, not the closest unit.
A way to improve Barnaxus
- Thread starter Uberness
- Start date
Um, that was changed so that it give exp to random units that you own, not the closest unit.
Barnaxus is not a hero.
He is a useful chap but not a hero. Level him safely and guard him. Let your first wood golem take Orthus' axe.
Whats with Iron Golems? They are awesome. Although the strength 9 doesn't seem to pan out. I'm attacking combat 2 archers in a city with no defence and losing three full strength Iron Golems (maybe without Empower at this point)?! Anyone else had this.
And if you beeline for Iron Working and don't have Iron it would be extremely long winded to try for the Golem Workshop with its massive requirements. Although I think the idea that the Luchiurp will try to use their Str 5 Wood Golems with Empower V to get Iron no matter the cost makes for a fun concept.
Are Golems intended to get no benefit from their own experience in future?
He is a useful chap but not a hero. Level him safely and guard him. Let your first wood golem take Orthus' axe.
Whats with Iron Golems? They are awesome. Although the strength 9 doesn't seem to pan out. I'm attacking combat 2 archers in a city with no defence and losing three full strength Iron Golems (maybe without Empower at this point)?! Anyone else had this.
And if you beeline for Iron Working and don't have Iron it would be extremely long winded to try for the Golem Workshop with its massive requirements. Although I think the idea that the Luchiurp will try to use their Str 5 Wood Golems with Empower V to get Iron no matter the cost makes for a fun concept.
Are Golems intended to get no benefit from their own experience in future?
QES
Court Jester
Thoughts on Barney:
I remember saying pretty much what everyone has on these forums oh so many months ago. I do like what has been done with barney and the balance over all of the Luchuirp. I think we need to maintain the balance of the civ not specifically Ol Barney however.
The problem with allowing Barney to be more powerful - is that it makes it easy for the Standard melee units of the Luchurip become instantly more powerful. So ..helping one, instantly helps the other. This connection is both awesome, and slightly irritating.
Giving Barney the "metal upgrades" was a great idea. But I've an additional idea. Give Barney Affinity.
Give Barney several versions of affinity bonuses. This means that various mana would increase Barney's strength - but not that of all the other Golems.
I say Ol Barney be given Earth Affinity: 1, Enchantment Affinity: 1, Law Affinity: 1, and (when it comes out) Force Affinity: 1.
Think of Ol Barney has having DII style sockets. You can socket him with Mana, and that'll beef him up.
It doesnt over-uberize the golems. It makes Barney grow-able. And allows for alternatives in path choices in the game.
-Qes
I remember saying pretty much what everyone has on these forums oh so many months ago. I do like what has been done with barney and the balance over all of the Luchuirp. I think we need to maintain the balance of the civ not specifically Ol Barney however.
The problem with allowing Barney to be more powerful - is that it makes it easy for the Standard melee units of the Luchurip become instantly more powerful. So ..helping one, instantly helps the other. This connection is both awesome, and slightly irritating.
Giving Barney the "metal upgrades" was a great idea. But I've an additional idea. Give Barney Affinity.
Give Barney several versions of affinity bonuses. This means that various mana would increase Barney's strength - but not that of all the other Golems.
I say Ol Barney be given Earth Affinity: 1, Enchantment Affinity: 1, Law Affinity: 1, and (when it comes out) Force Affinity: 1.
Think of Ol Barney has having DII style sockets. You can socket him with Mana, and that'll beef him up.
It doesnt over-uberize the golems. It makes Barney grow-able. And allows for alternatives in path choices in the game.
-Qes
You would still be mad to use him. Get him to Combat V and protect him. The only way you would use him in the field is if you were steamrollering the opposition anyway to gain promotions he will only use on weakly defended opponents. Losing him will cripple you. If I were against Luchiurp and killed him I would put his pieces in my or my allies hardest city.
I think you are chasing roleplaying flavour too hard here. It is an appalling strategy to want Barnaxus on the frontline. Achilles didn't go kicking people in the head now did he?
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I can see the enchantment affinity and maybe force, but the others seem a little much. (I was actually thinking it might be best to weaken all golems but give them this affinity, but that is probably too much.)
I would much rather see him share his non-combat promotions, but be left somewhat weak compared to later units so that the Luchuirp would need to guard him carefully in order to keep their edge. If it is too much for him to share all the affects, maybe he should give out City-Raider I only after he has City-Raider II, and so on for the other multi-level promotions.
I would much rather see him share his non-combat promotions, but be left somewhat weak compared to later units so that the Luchuirp would need to guard him carefully in order to keep their edge. If it is too much for him to share all the affects, maybe he should give out City-Raider I only after he has City-Raider II, and so on for the other multi-level promotions.
QES
Court Jester
I think both of you missed my initial point.
Kael and team dislike balancing specific things - unit to unit. The Luchurip have a unique way of leveling their units, in that its done through one centralized unit instead of individually for each - this flavor is very cool. This means that if you level one, you level all, the benefit and danger for this is balancing within itself.
When we look at the Barnaxus issue as a "necessity" - that is, barney must be leveld, and must be maximum, - then it does become an issue. There is no "middle ground" with the luchurip. You're either very powerful with a 50% bonus to every unit you make, or "crippled" because your units have no upgrades whatsoever in comparison to others' armies. That is both the boon and bane of being luchurip. Kael and team did balance this some by cutting back the level of bonus from barney and increasing the str of each golem. That helped reduce its "either/or" feeling significantly - also with the ability to rebuild barney (which wasnt an option previously) gave the luchurip the ability to be more bold with barney.
What people (i think) want is to be able to use barney like he's just another hero. I think this is not what was intended for him. I think it could be added on - by giving barney the affinities. But to remove the corilation between barney and the golems of the civ, would remove the purpose of the civ all together. This mechanic is the definitive flavor aspect that gives it its unique taste. Therefore, it must be preserved. The civ as a whole is balanced against the others. There is the slight feeling of irritation that one "must play" a certain way with the luchurip in order to have the "most advantage". But I think if barney were given affinities - then the "magic" venue would be more plausible if one wished to focus more on barney than the golems. I dont think this mitigates the connection - nor breaks balance, but instead simply gives the luchurip more options.
I could be wrong. But I would strongly advise against any and all options that would remove the barney-golem connection.
-Qes
EDIT: After rereading your posts I think we are all on the same side, and in general agreement. However the call for "barney to be more playable over time" is an understandable one that people want - the trick is to make sure it doesnt somehow alter the fundamentals of playing the luchurip too much. The affinity Idea i posed was in order to give new life into barney, not change his role in the civ.
Kael and team dislike balancing specific things - unit to unit. The Luchurip have a unique way of leveling their units, in that its done through one centralized unit instead of individually for each - this flavor is very cool. This means that if you level one, you level all, the benefit and danger for this is balancing within itself.
When we look at the Barnaxus issue as a "necessity" - that is, barney must be leveld, and must be maximum, - then it does become an issue. There is no "middle ground" with the luchurip. You're either very powerful with a 50% bonus to every unit you make, or "crippled" because your units have no upgrades whatsoever in comparison to others' armies. That is both the boon and bane of being luchurip. Kael and team did balance this some by cutting back the level of bonus from barney and increasing the str of each golem. That helped reduce its "either/or" feeling significantly - also with the ability to rebuild barney (which wasnt an option previously) gave the luchurip the ability to be more bold with barney.
What people (i think) want is to be able to use barney like he's just another hero. I think this is not what was intended for him. I think it could be added on - by giving barney the affinities. But to remove the corilation between barney and the golems of the civ, would remove the purpose of the civ all together. This mechanic is the definitive flavor aspect that gives it its unique taste. Therefore, it must be preserved. The civ as a whole is balanced against the others. There is the slight feeling of irritation that one "must play" a certain way with the luchurip in order to have the "most advantage". But I think if barney were given affinities - then the "magic" venue would be more plausible if one wished to focus more on barney than the golems. I dont think this mitigates the connection - nor breaks balance, but instead simply gives the luchurip more options.
I could be wrong. But I would strongly advise against any and all options that would remove the barney-golem connection.
-Qes
EDIT: After rereading your posts I think we are all on the same side, and in general agreement. However the call for "barney to be more playable over time" is an understandable one that people want - the trick is to make sure it doesnt somehow alter the fundamentals of playing the luchurip too much. The affinity Idea i posed was in order to give new life into barney, not change his role in the civ.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
It might be a good idea... lower Barnaxus's strength, but give him an affinity to the main Luchuirp mana types. This'd give them more of a use for mana nodes even if they can't get higher tier casters.
An alteration in Blaze's maxmod was to allow upgrade in Barney's(to use QES' terminology) construction to advanced metals without rebuilding him. You just needed to have a forge or weaponsmith like other units. This went a long way toward making him playable in the late game.
That mod also allows you to take the hero promotion when you kill a hero. The mithril metal with heroic strength II, a total of +6 strength, still made him one of my most pwerful units at the end of the game.
I didn't exactly care for the way heroism is passed on, but if Barney were able to use metal upgrades and even ave one weak affinity (like enchantment 1) he could be powerul late game.
That mod also allows you to take the hero promotion when you kill a hero. The mithril metal with heroic strength II, a total of +6 strength, still made him one of my most pwerful units at the end of the game.
I didn't exactly care for the way heroism is passed on, but if Barney were able to use metal upgrades and even ave one weak affinity (like enchantment 1) he could be powerul late game.
QES
Court Jester
"Ol' Barney" is what I have been calling him since his debue. Barnaxus was just annoying to retype over and over - and I was playing the Luchurip the most at the time. So I had an affection for "Ol' Barney" and this was the result.
-Qes
Nikis-Knight
Deity
Luchuirp can have any type of spell caster units.
He also already uses the weapon system.
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Really? I thought they were limited to dwarven adepts. Oh well.
But just because he uses the weapons system doesn't mean that he wouldn't benefit from some affinity as well. If you tried to tell me that swordsmen were useful through all ages because they could get mithril weapons, I'd certainly disagree.
I think that making him, say, base strength 1 but with Enchantment, Law, and Earth affinity 1 (or whatever the Luchuirp starting mana types are), and giving him the weapons promos together would give him more of a chance to get more powerful as the game went by.
Nikis-Knight
Deity
No, sorry, the weapon system remark was a result of misreading a prior posters comment.
Remember, one of the Luchuirp leaders is arcane.
Best way to improve Barnaxus imo is to make the heroic strength and defense promotions require either 'Hero' OR 'Golem' and combat 5.
Since only one golem ever gets experience to buy promotions, it would allow Barnaxus to grow as other heroes do. (I'm not saying pass on Heroic str to other golems, though!)
Remember, one of the Luchuirp leaders is arcane.
Best way to improve Barnaxus imo is to make the heroic strength and defense promotions require either 'Hero' OR 'Golem' and combat 5.
Since only one golem ever gets experience to buy promotions, it would allow Barnaxus to grow as other heroes do. (I'm not saying pass on Heroic str to other golems, though!)
Chandrasekhar
Determined
Oh, I'm not sure if I've mentioned this before, but here's what I think about Barnaxus giving other promotions to other golems:
I say if he gets a second-tiered anti-unit promotion, then the first tiered one ought to be passed on to the rest of the army as well. Might lead to the Luchuirp being 'specialized' as a whole against specific unit types, which could be really interesting.
I say if he gets a second-tiered anti-unit promotion, then the first tiered one ought to be passed on to the rest of the army as well. Might lead to the Luchuirp being 'specialized' as a whole against specific unit types, which could be really interesting.
MagisterCultuum
Great Sage
I agree (and proposed it before you 
) Third level promotions should also let him teach the second level promotions.
I love the flavor of Luchuirp; it would probably be my favorite civ it it weren't for their inability to get the specialized promotions. I usually prefer to specialize units instead of giving them all combat promotions (unless they can get heroic strength). I would propose just giving their golems all his specialized promos, but that would probably be overpowered. We should either let him give promotions in this way, or create a weaker version of these promotions for golems and summons (cf. Empower I-V). While it might be nice to let summons start these, the way Chandrasekhar and I proposed is simpler.
) Third level promotions should also let him teach the second level promotions.I love the flavor of Luchuirp; it would probably be my favorite civ it it weren't for their inability to get the specialized promotions. I usually prefer to specialize units instead of giving them all combat promotions (unless they can get heroic strength). I would propose just giving their golems all his specialized promos, but that would probably be overpowered. We should either let him give promotions in this way, or create a weaker version of these promotions for golems and summons (cf. Empower I-V). While it might be nice to let summons start these, the way Chandrasekhar and I proposed is simpler.
My thoughts come from someone who believes in multiplayer balance as well as single player. A human opponent (and at the same time enemy) would make sure that if they got the Pieces of Barnaxus they would do their best to keep them. I know the thought of levelling Barnaxus and then relevelling him if he loses a battle is fine for people who skip through single player stopping to smell the flowers and feed the ducks.
It IS demoralising that your golems are fighting these battles and not getting any benefit from them, they're definitely missing that thrill we get used to of developing our chaps. Barnaxus might be your only outlet for that, and that is probably why I ended up losing him a couple of times (but got him back thankfully). Otherwise it makes no sense to be sending a STR 4 guy who is so useful out with a STR 5 unit that comes with the same tech.
About this Barnaxus passing on other promotions. Why risk losing your +50% WHEN BUILT Empower V for your basically free iron weapons at roughly Bronze Working stage (STR 5 + Empower Wood Golems as opposed to STR 3 Axemen + metal), and even better than mithril for your Iron Working stage (STR 9 + Empower Iron Golems as opposed to STR 5 macemen + metal).
I'm thinking the balance of this needs to be put into question before people start saying "Barnaxus and golems need more promotions". Whether mana affinity comes into it is a flavour question.
The fact you can't get massively promoted golems doesn't matter because you can produce so many with no maintenance. I know there are some instances where you want a few massively promoted units but you just don't get that with these guys, you have to use a different strategy.
As much as Barnaxus might tickle your fancy the Luchiurp are still all about the assembly line.
Are multiple levelled troops geometrically more powerful? I think so but that is common in FFH in general and still requires strategy to use correctly. This is why the golems are more powerful than other troops at the same level, because they will stay that way, and sometimes having one unit in a stack heavily promoted will make the stack twice as powerful (I haven't researched mathematics yet!).
Get yourself a real hero.
Barnaxus is a bonus for Luchiurp, not a real hero. If you want a hero get a real one who's death only hurts itself. You still have access to religion heros, etc. I got Saverous and Rosier in my current (still going) multiplayer game. The answer to your question is I really wanted to summon Hyborem.
The other reason I hate it is because if someone does carefully shepherd Barnaxus through the game and gets him highly levelled the WHOLE ARMY will be uber. Not just like shepherding a hero who will win against a stack of any 20 things the enemy could throw at him. Heros can be taken down with mid and high tier craziness but imagine having to do that to the WHOLE ARMY. The hero uberness of FFH is already huge and part of the intention. If you go down this path and then weaken the golems as soon as they come off the assembly line you are making them more like the other civs.
Heavily promoted units are heros (not necessarily Heros) in their own right and even if Barnaxus can teach Golems things you can't expect him to be able to teach unthinking creatures better than human heros could teach human soldiers, etc. He is not a DOS programmer.
My longest post ever.
It IS demoralising that your golems are fighting these battles and not getting any benefit from them, they're definitely missing that thrill we get used to of developing our chaps. Barnaxus might be your only outlet for that, and that is probably why I ended up losing him a couple of times (but got him back thankfully). Otherwise it makes no sense to be sending a STR 4 guy who is so useful out with a STR 5 unit that comes with the same tech.
About this Barnaxus passing on other promotions. Why risk losing your +50% WHEN BUILT Empower V for your basically free iron weapons at roughly Bronze Working stage (STR 5 + Empower Wood Golems as opposed to STR 3 Axemen + metal), and even better than mithril for your Iron Working stage (STR 9 + Empower Iron Golems as opposed to STR 5 macemen + metal).
I'm thinking the balance of this needs to be put into question before people start saying "Barnaxus and golems need more promotions". Whether mana affinity comes into it is a flavour question.
The fact you can't get massively promoted golems doesn't matter because you can produce so many with no maintenance. I know there are some instances where you want a few massively promoted units but you just don't get that with these guys, you have to use a different strategy.
As much as Barnaxus might tickle your fancy the Luchiurp are still all about the assembly line.
Are multiple levelled troops geometrically more powerful? I think so but that is common in FFH in general and still requires strategy to use correctly. This is why the golems are more powerful than other troops at the same level, because they will stay that way, and sometimes having one unit in a stack heavily promoted will make the stack twice as powerful (I haven't researched mathematics yet!).
Get yourself a real hero.
Barnaxus is a bonus for Luchiurp, not a real hero. If you want a hero get a real one who's death only hurts itself. You still have access to religion heros, etc. I got Saverous and Rosier in my current (still going) multiplayer game. The answer to your question is I really wanted to summon Hyborem.
The other reason I hate it is because if someone does carefully shepherd Barnaxus through the game and gets him highly levelled the WHOLE ARMY will be uber. Not just like shepherding a hero who will win against a stack of any 20 things the enemy could throw at him. Heros can be taken down with mid and high tier craziness but imagine having to do that to the WHOLE ARMY. The hero uberness of FFH is already huge and part of the intention. If you go down this path and then weaken the golems as soon as they come off the assembly line you are making them more like the other civs.
Heavily promoted units are heros (not necessarily Heros) in their own right and even if Barnaxus can teach Golems things you can't expect him to be able to teach unthinking creatures better than human heros could teach human soldiers, etc. He is not a DOS programmer.
My longest post ever.
onedreamer
Dragon
The bottom line is: level Barnaxus to Combat 5 with orc spearmen and goblins and park him in your capital. After that, use your empowered golems. And the Runes of Kilmorph, for gods' sake. Your real heroes are Bambur and... the Mithril Golem.
Maybe the problem is that Barnaxus already does enough for golems, but that his in game abilities don't reflect his desire "to help (the Luchuirp) rebuild the Empire, to recall what was forgotten, and to perfect what was remembered... And the Luchuirp, amazingly, instead of rankling at being 'taught' by a golem, loved him back. He was their link to the past and an amazing store of knowledge."
Here's the idea - maybe Barnaxus should function like a reverse Loki and make a special building in the city he hangs out in which improves research and culture. That way, you wouldn't be grumpy over having Barnaxus parked in your capital, you'd be happy to have the extra beakers and notes. And tell me that he's not a) loads better than an Elder Council for research (since he cannot forget anything he ever witnessed) and b) a potent provider of culture, given that he personally witnessed the old Empire of Kradh-Ke-zun. Maybe +2 and +10%? I'd think he'd be worth more, flavor wise, but I don't want to make him horribly unbalanced. Perhaps just make him the equivalent of a Great Scientist and a Great Bard, sans the GPP?
It doesn't solve the "what if I never get him properly levelled" issue, and I also think he should be able to repair himself (heck, if he just got Enchantment I he'd also improve a little bit in combat potency which would make him easier to use in the early game without adding anything to his late game potency), but it would solve the pernicious feeling that he's sitting there doing nothing. It's also flavorful, in that he's far more likely to be educating the Luchurip than seeking combat once their empire is nominally secure. He's not, primarily, a warrior, but a leader and teacher.
My 2c.
Here's the idea - maybe Barnaxus should function like a reverse Loki and make a special building in the city he hangs out in which improves research and culture. That way, you wouldn't be grumpy over having Barnaxus parked in your capital, you'd be happy to have the extra beakers and notes. And tell me that he's not a) loads better than an Elder Council for research (since he cannot forget anything he ever witnessed) and b) a potent provider of culture, given that he personally witnessed the old Empire of Kradh-Ke-zun. Maybe +2 and +10%? I'd think he'd be worth more, flavor wise, but I don't want to make him horribly unbalanced. Perhaps just make him the equivalent of a Great Scientist and a Great Bard, sans the GPP?
It doesn't solve the "what if I never get him properly levelled" issue, and I also think he should be able to repair himself (heck, if he just got Enchantment I he'd also improve a little bit in combat potency which would make him easier to use in the early game without adding anything to his late game potency), but it would solve the pernicious feeling that he's sitting there doing nothing. It's also flavorful, in that he's far more likely to be educating the Luchurip than seeking combat once their empire is nominally secure. He's not, primarily, a warrior, but a leader and teacher.
My 2c.
kenken244
Grammar Nazi
what i think should be done and i think is still pretty codeable is that barnaxuse's powers would be handled by a barnaxus promotion and you can costom build a golem and barnaxus can use his upgrade ability to add the barnaxus promotion to it and give it a special "able to get all normal promotions" unittype this wont work on bone golems to prevent abuse and will cost quite a lot of gold. barnaxus will be able to pass on many more promotions but a weaker level to golems. also barnaxus should gain experience very slowly ( like a max of 1 - 3 per battle) i think that this will help make barnaxus better.
![[NWO]_Valis](https://civfanatics-data.community.forum/avatars/m/110/110973.jpg?1475248361){kind=avatar}
[NWO]_Valis
A bad kitty!
Something like the spell Hope or Inspiration? Would be ok wiht the flav.
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