A way to improve Barnaxus

[QES]

One of the principle issues with Ol Barney was the question of timing. If one did not rush to barney, then a goodly percentage of the time most of the barbarian hordes had disapeared or were far too strong by the time you built him. This "lag behind" created that classic risk of "level him? or have him follow others around and pick off the weaklings? THis ruined his flavor significantly.

Giving him affinity, or some "slow growth" over time, doenst make him "a front line" unit - but it would give him the ability to at least kill "some things" at a later time if you didnt build him right away (or couldnt). Also - the unfortunate death of barney - while not irrepreable, does create concerns for how to "relevel" him at a later time. Giving him some function to be able level during most points of the game while still offering a risk at any point of the game - would keep him active and pursuant to getting that bonus for all golems. And this in turn would not "doom" the luchurip if they'd not built him in a timely fashion.
-Qes

 

[slowcar]

how about barnaxus being able to cast repair himself?

 

[Uberness]

I still like my idea of having him casually learn like a arcane unit, gives the civ the option to play it safe and take forever for the uber army or to send him out and take a risk to get the final combat V promotion faster for the uber army before parking him back in the city for the rest of the game, could just be like 1 experience every 10-20 turns.

Makes it less of a either-or gameplay with bad luck or lack of barbarians or just plain not wanting to fight your neighbor(s).

 

[Thennorin]

So this topic has been brought up again, eh? I could restate my opinion, but it's the same as QES's:

The Luchurip have a unique way of leveling their units, in that its done through one centralized unit instead of individually for each - this flavor is very cool.

When we look at the Barnaxus issue as a "necessity" - that is, barney must be leveld, and must be maximum, - then it does become an issue. There is no "middle ground" with the luchurip. You're either very powerful with a 50% bonus to every unit you make, or "crippled" because your units have no upgrades whatsoever in comparison to others' armies.

Bold emphasis added by myself. While the flavour is cool, the mechanic is in question. It's unique but is it fun? Well, you've either got it or you don't. But because it's such a big potential modifier, I think golems are designed assuming that Barnaxus has combat V. End result: one early game, low-strength unit decides a large part of the whole game for Luchuirp.

Again, is this fun? What if Barnaxus dies? Sure, he can be rebuilt but only if you get the pieces back - I feel this penalty is too severe since you need to get them using a weakened army. Perhaps a better mechanism is to always allow Luchuirp to rebuild Barnaxus at level 0. Yes, he'll require more care to level up later on, but he can arm himself with weapons and it's better than losing him for good.

Barnaxus is the central axle of the Luchuirp and it doesn't feel the same when he's not in play. Also, if he were always available - if not necessarily at combat V all the time - then the base strength of some of the golems could safely be lowered (*cough*iron golem to 8*cough*).

 

[QES]

Another idea -

What if barney's "bonus" giving promotions were not 'combat' promotions? What if instead of 5 levels to get all 5 promotions and thus 50% for all golems, his promotions were split up? In this, it would require perhaps 10 levels for barney to give his full bonus to all golems.

This creates a "middle ground". If the golems themselves were balanced to assume a 20% (and not 50%) upgrade, then anything beyond that would be bonus. However, getting beyond that might be risky and difficult for the luchruip player.

I see Barney's promotions working like this:

Combat I
Synthesis I (requires combat I)
Combat II (requires combat I)
Synthesis II (requires combat II)
Combat III (requires combat II)
Synthesis III (requires combat III)
Combat IV (requires combat III)
Synthesis IV (requires combat IV)
Combat V (requires combat V)
Synthesis V (requires combat V)

The "synthesis" promotion would give the golems the equivalent "boost" and it would give barney perhaps some other minor bonus. (Magic resistances?)

In this, the combat promotions themselves dont level golems - they level barney. Then, the synthesis pormotions level the golems, but not Barney (as much).

As it is, if the golems were baselined for a 20% or "synthesis II" balance, thats 4 levels of leveling barney (at a weaker rate).

The impetus to level barney is still in the game. If the balance assumes 20%, then that means you have to get barney to at least level 4 times to be on par. However, if you can get barney to level another 6 times, you'll be ahead of the curve. This creates a "middle." Since barny isnt receiving boosts at every level (from combat promotions) he's effectively weaker on the whole at any given time. In this, i think barney might deserve an initial balancing boost to his baseline str.

A 0 exp barney, would/could go around and kill weak things to gain a couple of levels. This would mean barney would be sitting either at +20% str, and a 10% boost to golems, OR barney could be at +40% with no boosts to golems. It would then be reasonable strategy to level him up slowly with support (using golem armies to expose weak people to level him) or to level him first, then seek to use that strength to start leveling golems. Either way, it'd be a risk, and multiple choices paths would open.

Just a thought,
-Qes

 

[MagisterCultuum]

That system sounds almost exactly how it works now, except that the golems' promotions are called Empower I-V instead of Synthesis. I would still greatly prefer it if his other, non-combat promotions (mobility, city raider, city garrison, drill, etc) had some sort of boost for the other golems in the Open-Skyers' empire.

 

[QES]

That system sounds almost exactly how it works now, except that the golems' promotions are called Empower I-V instead of Synthesis. I would still greatly prefer it if his other, non-combat promotions (mobility, city raider, city garrison, drill, etc) had some sort of boost for the other golems in the Open-Skyers' empire.

Not quite what I meant.

For the golems, they receive the "Empower I through V" promotions, from barnaxus appropriate combat promotions. (If i am not mistaken).

What I am preposing, is that the empower premotions not be tied to the combat promotions of barney, but the "synthesis" promotions I made up.

Think of it like this;

We've got Barney, and an Iron golem (being made).

If barney has 0 levels. The golem will get no promotions.

If barney has 1 level, he'll take combat I - the Golem still has no promotions.

Barney levels again, he can either chose combat II (which helps him gain more levels by killing even more), or he can choose "synthesis I". If barney chooses the latter, the golem then gets empower I.

This repeats all the way up.

Therefore, it would require leveling barney 10 times to get the 50% empower bonus on all golems. This is a LOT more difficult than getting barney to level 5 times (and then sit him somewhere safe).

If barney has to level 10 times for "full use" - then safeguarding him becomes more of a gambit. I would like to assume that golems are rebalanced for a 20% assumption. This means, that with an unlevled, or low-leveled (or dead) barney, the luchurip are suffering - keeping Barney a target.

At 4 levels, it is quite reasonable for the player (becuase of increasing difficulties) to put barney away for safe keeping. He could have the 20% bonus to golems, and therefore be on par with the world.

Or, the player could continue to risk barney abroad and in wars (not just with barbarians) to increase his levels even higher - if successful, he'll be rewarded potentially every two levels with another "synthesis" and therefore "empower" promotion.

The more barney is used, the higher the risk and danger - yet, because of re-balancing, so too greater the reward. If however, barney is killed - then the golems are at 0% and the luchurip are again in grave danger. Getting him back, as always would be a priority.

Simply put - stretching out the empower benefits for golems over more levels for barney and readjusting balance accordingly - would create a "middle" and still maintain the flavor of the luchurip.

-Qes

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm pretty sure that would leave the Luchuirp far too weak, unless you also added synthesis versions for his non-combat promotions. I don't really like the idea of adding all these new promotions just for one unit to get; I'm pretty sure it would just complicate and slow down the game.

 

[Caradoc]

Newbie question: How does this guy work anyway? There's no explanation in the 'pedia that I can find. How do you get him to 'mark' another Golem and what does that do? I've have him off killing Skeletons along with a Wood Golem, and he is leveling up but no upgrade/promotions/actions are opening up for either of them. Do I need to go back to a city? Also, there's a little red square in the upper right of his icon. Does that mean something?

 

[EugeneStyles]

Combat I
Synthesis I (requires combat I)
Combat II (requires combat I)
Synthesis II (requires combat II)
Combat III (requires combat II)
Synthesis III (requires combat III)
Combat IV (requires combat III)
Synthesis IV (requires combat IV)
Combat V (requires combat V)
Synthesis V (requires combat V)

I think that just makes things worse. Now it takes even longer to get his bonus maximized, and it now makes his first *10* level-ups set in stone. The Barnaxus I have in my game has Commando, Cover II, Mobility, and I think March. In your version, he would just have Combat V and Synthesis IV and would need another promotion to get Synthesis V. I understand what you're saying that you would balance Golems to be useful at a lower level of Synthesis, but as a player, you're not thinking about getting them "up to par", you're thinking about "maximizing the bonus". I'm lucky that I maxed out the bonus at a point in the game where Barnaxus and Bambur were still more powerful than anything my opponents had, and they could go off conquering cities together. Thus, instead of hiding him after reaching Combat V, I actually got to play with him for a while, and now in turn 200 or so, I'm starting to hide him away. In your version, I wouldn't have had a choice, I'd still be grinding away to get him up to Synthesis V.

Instead of making it more tedious to level him, there should be a way to not completely lose the game if he dies. What if there was a way for one of your other Golems to become Barnaxus? Like, say, any Golem in a stack with his pieces can integrate him into their pattern - that Golem becomes Barnaxus with, say, 50% of his previous experience. Something like that.

I also like the idea of Barnie giving other bonuses. Like if he has Cover II, all of your Golems get Cover I.

 

[EugeneStyles]

Newbie question: How does this guy work anyway? There's no explanation in the 'pedia that I can find. How do you get him to 'mark' another Golem and what does that do? I've have him off killing Skeletons along with a Wood Golem, and he is leveling up but no upgrade/promotions/actions are opening up for either of them. Do I need to go back to a city? Also, there's a little red square in the upper right of his icon. Does that mean something?

From the wiki: "The first "living" golem Barnaxus is able to change and adapt to his environment. Even more amazing he is able to share this knowledge with all of the golems in his empire. The game effect of this is that if Barnaxus has any of the combat promotions, all other Golems in his empire gain corresponding Empower promotions."

 

[xAlephx]

Ultra simple solution: Is there a way to have him not give promotions to golems when he is dead but also not have him lose promotions when he is rebuilt? Enemy civs could still take and hold his body and substantially weaken the Luchuirp, but it wouldn't be such a devastating blow if he died. He could also fight barbarians for experience relatively freely as long as you had other units around to recover him.

 

[Nikis-Knight]

But because it's such a big potential modifier, I think golems are designed assuming that Barnaxus has combat V.

I think golems were designed assuming no promotions, and Barnaxis is icing on the cake; that's why the combat promos were toned down to empower level. They are still stronger than other units of the same time, and Luchirp can use any mages and priests as well as most other civs, mounted units as well. Of course losing Barnaxus is a big loss, but I fail to see how it is a game ending one.

 

[merciary]

It is in my opinion because without it (sometimes even with it) due to the fact that they don't get promotions they can't specialize to take out a heavily upgraded unit without mass casualties. I don't know how many times one super unit has slowed my advance to a crawl.

 

[QES]

I think golems were designed assuming no promotions, and Barnaxis is icing on the cake; that's why the combat promos were toned down to empower level. They are still stronger than other units of the same time, and Luchirp can use any mages and priests as well as most other civs, mounted units as well. Of course losing Barnaxus is a big loss, but I fail to see how it is a game ending one.

I think the issue is that % bonuses start adding up to more significance later in the game. A strength 5 unit with a 20% bonus, is a str 6 unit.

As the game progresses and the base strengths of units get higher, suddenly all those promotions they earned early game have higher and higher impact on their overall strength. With an inexpereienced golem, even with a higher base - you still might be overwhelmed by experienced "normal" units. Since golems (when last i played) felt far more expensive to build, the higher exp, cheaper units of my enemies DID slow my progress substantially. Also - city seiges were always very very costly to wage.

This is why barney - more or less - became a "necessity". The point of playing the luchurip is for the golems. I mean, yes, every race is balanced (I think), but people play 'cause its fun, not cause its necessary. So when the principle mechanic of a race, like the luchurip, demands certain actions, the restriction on the principle "hero" unit and strategy (rushing to construction) migitage the "funzies" of that mechanic.

My main idea is in attept to preserve the mechanic in whole. Barney IS necessary (in my opinion) to any fun luchurip strategies, the main problem being is that he's either at 50% or 0%. 5 levels isnt a "game-long" pursuit. It's something you do right away, and then can afford to put him away.

People have said that they dislike the idea of 10 levels, because it would make it tedious - but the idea here is to keep barney active in the world for the game, not merely for the beginning.

I feel like I'm rambling so I'll stop - but the basic principle of my barney-based wishes was that he be useful (though not unrisky) to use throughout the game, and that the "bonuses" for the golems also be spread out throughout the length of a "full" game.

As is the promotions are not spread out enough and thus people think in "all or nothings". I think this can be mitigated by a longer and more fully developed system for barney promotions.

Just my two cents,
-Qes

 

[merciary]

I don't like that because at a point he becomes useless in a fight against more advance units. If the 10 promotions system you suggest would be used then I suggest allowing him to upgrade into new forms. Also possibly allowing him to "fuse" with another golem, having that golem he fused with be the base unit but have all his promotions making him kinda like a great commander for the golems.

 

[vivictius]

One of the biggest problems I see with him is when he is computer controlled. With a human player most people see to it that he gets Combat V and then hide him in a city somewhere. The computer though tends to keep attacking with him until he dies, and usually dies quickly. This makes a computer controlled Luchurip civilization rather weak. Is it possible to give the computer a different Barnaxus? Like change his AI tag to city defense and give him the hero promotion?

It would be nice if some of the other promotions would carry over, like mobility, resistances (can he even get those?), or sentry.

 

[Thonnas]

it might help if recovering the pieces allowed you to actually rebuild barnaxus, as opposed to just allowing the creation of another one. Or has that been fixed? It has been a few versions since I played Luchiurp and lost barnaxus. What I mean is, does rebuilding him restore his xp and promotions or just make a new barnaxus that requires further leveling. This would make loosing him a wee less devastating, and recovering the pieces a bit more important.

It would probably also be helpful if barnaxus could gain the heroic combat promotions, making him more usefull into the later parts of the game.

More mini promotions for the other golem via his promotions would also make it more useful to keep leveling him, but then a whole new set of balancing issues come into play. Maybe this could come from dropping the general golem bonus down to 5% and then giving further boosts when barnaxus gains heroic promotions.

 

[Mithrus]

Something I haven't tried, but if barney dies and you have a city with the blasting workshop in it, after he is re-made, would he have the ability to cast fireballs?

 

[Nikis-Knight]

It would probably also be helpful if barnaxus could gain the heroic combat promotions, making him more usefull into the later parts of the game

I agree with you here, and I think it would work if heroic str/def required Either Hero or Golem promotion. Since only one golem get's promotions, this should do the trick?