Abusing the combat and great leaders probability code

Storm-br

Chieftain
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
Messages
10
After playing a few games of civ3 I noticed some oddities about the combat system and how you can use them to your advantage. Im sure a lot of the veteran players realized the same things I say here, but for those who havent here it goes. Note that this is far from "fair play" and its assumedly a tatic for power gamers. Thing is on games like deity/large you kinda need to use every bit of system abuse you can find.

Say for instance you have 3 swordmen who are about to attack an enemy city with 2 spearmen. You have another swordmen on the edge of a different city, or just merely adjacent to an enemy unit.

You attack the city and you lose the first combat. You probably already know by that point that reloading and trying the same combat order wont get you anywhere - the battle result is stored in memory and its unchangeble unless you try a different pattern.

Reload and select the unit adjacent to that other enemy unit. Attack it. Chances are you are gonna lose - the system will use the same combat memory. Altho rare, sometimes even elite swordman can lose to regular warriors if the combat memory is a win to the AI. Units statistics does modify the general outcome tho (obvisouly).

Even losing this battle, it frees up the combat memory. Try and attack again the city. You MAY win this time. Save the game and try to attack the last spearman on the city. If you lose, repeat the procudere, see if you can generate another combat elsewhere to free the combat memory again.


On great leaders. Altho I didnt test this up to extreme points, Im like 90% sure the following rule apllies. Say you have a veteran unit and an elite unit, both adjacent to enemy units, may it be the same enemy or two separate ones, it doesnt matter.
You attack with the veteran, win, and get promoted to elite. Unit promoting are also stored in memory, so if you reload and attack again, it will again get promoted.
I have reason to believe that the same algorithym used to promote units is used to determine an especially higher chance of getting a great leader.

So the trick is, first attack with your veteran units. If it does promote, reload, and attack instead with your elite unit. In my experiments this grants a much higher chance of getting a great leader. In a deity/tiny game, I got two great leaders by the time it was 2000 BC by using this little glitch. Of course, you wont get a GL everytime you do this, but you sure do have an higher chance.

Those friendly barbarian huts, wichever they give away is also stored in memory. I havent still havent figured out what exactly clears its memory tho. If anyone knows let me know please. If I get bad stuff like gold/deserted/enemies, I wait a few turns before trying again and usually get a different result by then.
 
I don't really mean to flame you, as I understand that you're just trying to help folks, but jeez, that's kinda anal don't you think?

FYI - Random number seeds are often created off the current system date-time (which is obviously constantly changing), so reloading the just saved-just-before game, PROBABLY isn't doing you any good.

But your advice (which is technically sound) in a nutt-shell, is "Save, fight, if you don't like the result - reload and fight again."

-F-
 
Hell, I'll say it, that's straight up, absolutely, ******ed.

Iron man, the only way to play!!
 
Firaxis has coded Civ III using a random number seed that is saved with the save game, precisely to limit the save and reload cheat. Storm-br has documented a workaround. :rolleyes:

Hey, if you've been playing for 20 hours and something absolutely critical goes wrong, by all means use it! SP is all about enjoying yourself. I would encourage you not to get in the habit, but hey, it's up to you. If you get used to playing like that though, you'll probably find it impossible to win at the GOTMs, where cheating is not allowed. Of course, there's no way to prove that you didn't cheat in the GOTM! :(

I'd like to see some kind of ironman setup option (no saving, only 1 save per 2 hours play, no reload for 2 hours after save, or something like that) for use in comparitive play.
 
Storm-br

According to the rules - the ONLY time you can get a great leader is when an elite unit wins a battle
 
FYI - Random number seeds are often created off the current system date-time (which is obviously constantly changing), so reloading the just saved-just-before game, PROBABLY isn't doing you any good.

Random number seeds are created then saved to a cache memory. If you conduct a single attack, reload the game, and do the same attack, you will get exactly the same result, no matter how many times you reload. I dont mean to flame you either, but in your first paragraph it seems you never realized that.
What I proposed is a way to work around and clear the random seed's cache.

But your advice (which is technically sound) in a nutt-shell, is "Save, fight, if you don't like the result - reload and fight again."

No, my advice in a nutshell is "save, fight, if you dont like the result - change your attack pattern to clear the random seed cache"

Hell, I'll say it, that's straight up, absolutely, ******ed.

Iron man, the only way to play!!

Thanks for kind, touching remark. BTW if you, or anyone at all, is able to win deity/large or huge going ironman, then by all means share your superhuman knowledge and skill with us.

Hey, if you've been playing for 20 hours and something absolutely critical goes wrong, by all means use it! SP is all about enjoying yourself. I would encourage you not to get in the habit, but hey, it's up to you.

I probably shouldve said that myself on the original post. Thats my point. And its actually stupid to make a habit out of it, youll find yourself losing huge amounts of time on pattern-changing for a minimal profit.

According to the rules - the ONLY time you can get a great leader is when an elite unit wins a battle


Well thats obvious. What I demonstrated is a way to maximize your chances of getting a GL explaining how unit promotion is related to getting a GL. I cant think of any other way to explain it more clearly then I did before, so read the first post again if u want to.

If you get used to playing like that though, you'll probably find it impossible to win at the GOTMs, where cheating is not allowed. Of course, there's no way to prove that you didn't cheat in the GOTM!

Is save-reload considered a cheat in GOTM? I mean it as a question not sarcasm.
Anyone I dont know why they didnt put iron man option in the game...
 
Storm-br : Didn't realize they saved the seed. I believe you, I just think it's kinda silly on their part. It seems trivial to attempt to FORCE a player to lose a battle by keeping the seed. It's just a freakin game. If a player wants to save and refight the battle again, let him do it for Christ's sake. But yes, by changing the event sequence that it is using, the seed will change the die roll(s) that are being used for your combat.

What is GOTM? From context, I figured they were talking about those "Submit your score on this scenario, and whomever get's highest, has bragging rights." (dunno, never participated in it, but I've thot about it). ... GOTM = Game of the month. I'm a little slow sometimes.

On "great leader" creation. I DON'T WANT ANY! It's those sorts of folks who start rebellions, and then they drive tanks across your lawn and tear up your azaelias! They start saying bad things about you, and before you know it, an angry mob is storming your bathroom! "Get out you stupid peasants, you get fed -next- week!"

I emplore you to Kamikaze your GLs into enemy Pikeman! You'll thank me when it's 1984 and you're still an all-powerful dictatror! Otherwise you end up going the way of Papa-Doc, Pinochet, Mussalini, Noriaga, and Malosavich!

Despotism forever! :slay:

(* *)
-F-
 
I've tried this out a few times and it works.

Two points to make, as a result of my experience:

1. It seems to take a "higher" random number to create a great leader than it does to promote a unit.

2. Can't do this all the time because the game will become too tedious/boring with all the reloads (which are not fast enough).
 
But your advice (which is technically sound) in a nutt-shell, is "Save, fight, if you don't like the result - reload and fight again."


If the stupid AI didn't do many weird things, and didn't cheat so much, I would be a 100% against that idea. But reloading still is a rather lame way to win. You also must have too much time on your hands to do that repeatedly.
 
How about doing some reverse testing. If you are interested in how GL's are formed, save before using an Elite to attack, and if you get a GL, save again in a different file, reload before the attack, and attack with a veteran. If you are right, you should get 100% troop promotion.

It's true that reloading is a daunting task and it sort of take the flow right out of the game. However, I agree that SP is for fun, that's why people sometimes will also play on simpler levels just to beat up comps...SP is SP, single player. When you are the ruler of your own game, it really doesn't matter how another wants to play to get maximum enjoyment.

Civ on!
Huanie!
 
sheesh people .... poor old storm-br makes a comment that was SPECIFICALLY stated to apply ONLY to powergamers and/or people that are trying on a diety map ..... someone would think he is telling u all how he is going to frag all your arse's when multiplayer gets here :rolleyes:
 
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