aCK-3 The Cat with the Hat

[IamJohn]

Can you post the saves for the two too good spots? They'd be fun to play in off time to give Justinian a shot for the first time.

 

[S.ilver]

I'll attach C and E to this post, so you can try running it in a solo game if you want.

It looks like there are two primary votes for A, so we'll go with that if there's no protest.

I'll get the first set started on, however, we already have a choice to make. Justinian starts with Mysticism, so we CAN make a religious run if we want to. I am not exactly fond of that kind of starting strategy, as that will cause some issues for the diplo side of the game, but let's hear some other opinions on it.

 

[pholtz]

Well, since we're going with A, that is one of the maps least suited to an early religion as BW is so important to chop those forests. Also Agriculture to get some grassland/resource farms up. However, if that hidden coastal spot is a sea food, then it is an option.

If we are going to settle in place, so much depends on what gets revealed. Sea food? Another food source in the BFC. If there is no food resource, we are in for a challenge. I think we would need to build a worker and research Agriculture right off the bat, followed by mining and BW.

If there is seafood, we could build a workboat and try for a religion.

As I understand it.. advantages of an early religion:

- Organized Religion!! big production boost.
- If you spread the religion to one of your neighbors then good relations with them.
- Happiness boost

Disadvantages

- You are going to make enemies of people not your religion, so you have to make sure you spread it to at least one neighbor quickly.
- Sides are going to be chosen for you, based on religion.
- A bit of trouble fighting those of your religion as you get 'we don't want to fight brother's of the faith'

 

[IamJohn]

Unless we have a larger amount then normal of commerce I think it may be better to go for worker techs rather then head for a religion. We can try to get a later one, such as Judaism or maybe Christianity, instead, or just wait to get a donated one, which could help us diplomatically if we play it right.

 

[The Simple Mind]

I would go for mining first, subject to any resources in the fog. In my experience it's better to get resouces / land improved first than chasing religions.

What's the build order? Normally, if I've got food I would go worker, warrior x 4 or 5 (slot in workboat if seafood) until happy cap then worker, settler and keep pumping out workers & settlers. At present, there doesn't seem to be a lot of food (hopefully this'll change once S.ilver settles) to justify starting with a worker. Would it be worthwhile starting with a couple warriors to improve our scouting and waiting until we reach size two before starting the worker?

 

[Greentitch]

'A' definitely looks the most interesting for the reasons mentioned by others. The two flood plain starts are amazingly good and I might also play through one for some more practice at this difficulty level (I think I've won one game at Monarch before).

One thing I notice is the total lack of food resources on that start. Do all the shuffle maps guarantee food in your BFC? If so can we assume that there will be some seafood under the fog to the west and hopefully some cows 2s1e of the settler? I can never remember if spices give extra food and therefore would 2 of them count as a food resource.

 

[pholtz]

I think we just have to wait until we settle to know what to do with A. I suggest worker first if there is no food, BECAUSE there is no food. The city would grow too slowly, but a three hammer square would allow normal building of a worker.

Then suggest agriculture first.. because we have no food . We need to build some farms so our city will grow.

Of course all this can change as soon as we see the BFC.

 

[IamJohn]

One thing I notice is the total lack of food resources on that start. Do all the shuffle maps guarantee food in your BFC?

As far as I know you're always guaranteed food in your bfc, so there should be food in the 4 black tiles that we'll be able to access if we settle down where we are atm.

We'll also get an extra hammer in the city center if we settle on the hill.

IMO we also need to make a beeline for bronze working so we can start chopping the forest tiles, there's settler's in them thar hills!

 

[The Simple Mind]

Is that a plains hill? I thought it was a grassland hill = no extra hammer.

 

[IamJohn]

Yeah, you're right, sorry. Settling on a plains hill gives you a total of 2 hammers in the city's tile, settling on a grassland hill gives you a total of 1 hammer in the city center, so all we really get is the defense bonus.

 

[The Simple Mind]

If we move the warrior 1S1E and there is nothing exciting on the square below that one, do we consider settling on one of the dyes? We'd lose the spices, one hill and the fogged tile 2S1E of the warrior but I wouldn't say they are great tiles for us in the early years. If we settle on dye we get extra commerce, right? Will help with teching. Also losing coastal tiles though could have coast / ocean to the west.

As this is epic it isn't such a necessity to settle on the first turn. I would move the warrior per above and move the settler at least 1s1w or even 2s1w. What do you think?

 

[IamJohn]

If we settle on dye we get extra commerce, right?

I just tested it to make sure, and no, we don't get an extra commerce if we settle on a dye.

As this is epic it isn't such a necessity to settle on the first turn. I would move the warrior per above and move the settler at least 1s1w or even 2s1w. What do you think?

Yeah, but when we move we lose access to the sea, something I think could be a substantial benefit. I definitly think we should move the warrior, probably SW before we do anything, and I'm willing to spend time moving if we think we can get a big enough benefit out of it.

 

[pholtz]

One thing to remember is that we are spiritual. So most of the disadvantages of an early religion go away. After all, if it causes diplo problems we just change our religion, with no anarchy. So if there were a 3+ food source with 2 commerce adjacent, I would say go for it. But no such tile exists, and moving to it would defeat the purpose, as a single turn could make a difference. When I suggested early religion as an option if we had seafood, I was probably wrong, it would be in the second ring, not available for working right away.

And moving around before settling scares me a bit. Sooo much forest, which slows our movement. But definitely move the warrior before any decision.

As far as moving to the dye to settle, I would vote no. No extra anything for doing so. We give up the extra commerce we would get working it with a farm. And it might give us useless ocean. Right now we are coastal without ocean tiles, which I like.

 

[Whosit]

When I suggested early religion as an option if we had seafood, I was probably wrong, it would be in the second ring, not available for working right away.

Lurker: Byzantium does not start with Fishing, anyway, so it probably wouldn't have mattered. As for your food situation, building a Plantation on Spices does yield an extra food, so I think that the RNG is counting those spices towards your BFC food supply. I think I once generated a start like that, though you probably will find another food source of some kind. Maybe.

Suspense abounds, even before the first turn! This should be fun.

 

[S.ilver]

My apologies for delaying the opening turnset by a day. I hoped to get it posted tonight, but I just got home after a few unexpected events. I have loads of time tomorrow though, so it will get played.

I am pleased that it wasn't completely dead time though, as there was some great discussion going on. Let me comment on it a bit right now.

You are all correct in not wanting to run for an early religion immediately. Early religion means neglecting worker techs, and we have basically nothing in that area, so that would set us back, as we essentially need Bronze Working to do anything with all those trees. The trees also nicely play towards our Imperialistic trait, so we want to be leveraging that, instead of trying to go down a religious path.

All capital sites are guaranteed at least one food. So there's either seafood in the hidden tile, or something on that bare grassland in the SE. Pray for some sort of crop, and not something like Cows, as we'll be needing as much food as we can get. At any rate, we can do NOTHING with whatever food there is until we get the tech.

So our first priority needs to be getting the tech to make our food source improvable. Secondly, we need to head for Mining->Bronze Working as even a basic start. A bigger concern of mine is that there is no bare hills sitting around. That's a fairly big giveaway that there isn't any ancient age metal to be had in our capital. We probably have coal or uranium (I think uranium can appear in forested hills). Hopefully the RNG hasn't pulled a "Boff" on us and screwed us out of easily accessible metal. Although that's the fun of the situation .

I'm not really too keen on moving the settler. Usually the game spawns you at a decent location, although there are exceptions. There's too many trees to see very far. Settling on the dye wins us what appears to be a whole pile of ocean tiles, and that's never very fun. If I was playing a solo game, I might actually move 1E, to ditch 3 water tiles for 3 land tiles (although they are fogged). That gives a coastal city with 3 water tiles total, which makes a great production based port. Of course, I'm thinking too far in advance there, and it would be quite a gambit as well with the mystery tiles.

 

[pholtz]

Lurker: Byzantium does not start with Fishing, anyway, so it probably wouldn't have mattered.

Doh!

S.ilver is going to have his hands full with us noobs and no Liq to help

 

[pholtz]

Well, I've read Boff-01 and aCK-01 and learned from both. I occasionally lose track of what's happening as to really understand it I guess I would have to download the games and take a look at all the names and signs. . But aCK-01 has some instructional gems that I'll have to review and then hopefully apply to my play in this game. aCK-02 will be next on my list of games to look at. Any other recommended games for Prince/Monarch level players?

 

[pholtz]

I guess it was a busy weekend for S.ilver, or else the start is impossible and he is trying to figure out how to tell us

 

[IamJohn]

I'm not in a rush.

 

[The Simple Mind]

Maybe the fogged tiles have got three gems in them and S.ilver's worried that this will be too easy for us