aCK-3 The Cat with the Hat

[pholtz]

2925 BC (43):

Dirk and "what's his name" have already moved, so have to wait for next turn. I am leaving research on AH. I notice if I change one tileworker to the dye, AH is completed on turn earlier, warrior is delayed just one turn. Since the warrior isn't going anywhere, it seemed like the thing to do.

Chagrin starts his chop. WHACK!(ing end of turn button)

2900 BC (44):
Dirk on his way to spy on Bismark peeks through the pass to see some incense.

WHACK!

2875 BC (45):

zzzz WHACK!

2850 BC (46):

Lions prowling to the east of town. WHACK!

2825 BC (47):

The Lions disappear back into the fog.
A new warrior is trained, and the chop is down to one turn remaining. I haven't played with the production queue much, so let me know if I mess this up. I put a Settler on the top of the queue. Then as I cycle through the units, Chagrin finishes his chop animation but I think the hammers from the chop haven't been assigned yet, so I leave the Settler on top. WHACK!

2800 BC (48):

Chagrin moves to the southern Spice. I place a warrior ahead of the Settler in the production queue now. Dirk waves to one of Bismark's scouts and notices some strange furry animals. WHACK!

2775 BC (49):

Bismark is having problems with bandits,

Some lions approach the unnamed warrior. He'll stay in the woods and see if he can bait the lions to attack. He has a 73% chance to win if he attacks, but losing one of our few warriors would hurt. So far nothing but tundra west of Berlin, don't see where Biz met another Civilization unless it was a scout from across the mountain ridge to the west. Besides the lions, this picture also shows the furry animals Dirk saw.

Chagrin starts hewing wood again. WHACK!

2750 BC (50):

Lions attack! "Lionus" (tired of naming him "unnamed warrior") defends and gets 1 xp. Down to 1.6, so he'll rest in the forest. WHACK!

2725 BC (51):

Machiavelli has a pretty low opinion of us.

Constantinople grows to 4! Settler back to the head of the line. I work the population on a 1F2H tile as that increases the hammers going into the settler. AH is 7 to go. I check to make sure I can move the new warrior off the city without causing any problems has he'll have to start moving soon to help escort the settler. WHACK!

2700 BC (52):
Bismark has founded Hamburg

Lionus is healed and moves up to take a better look at Berlin. The newbie warrior starts moving north to fog bust. No sign of Hamburg. WHACK!

2675 BC (53):

Dirk moves around back, and discovers some bad news. Berlin has Copper and a worker is building a mine. Since there is only one archer in the city, the AI won't attack. So next turn Dirk could steal the worker and stop the mine construction. Chagin finishes the chop, Settler is 3 turns away, AH 5.
I move the city tileworker onto the unchopped spice to keep the settler production and research unchanged. WHACK!

2650 BC (54):

Dang. Biz completes his mine, and a second archer pops in Berlin the same turn.

If Dirk moves in to take the worker (using his fast move though the woods) Biz will probably attack him and kill him. Not sure if moving Lionus in also would change that. All we would accomplish would be to take a worker from him as I think it would be best to delete it. Lionus could camp out in Berlin's BFC, that would slow Biz down a bit, but also put him on a war footing. Not sure if it's worth it.

So as I asked in a previous message, should we steal a worker? This turn isn't the best time, but I'm sure the AI will offer a better opportunity soon. Settler is 2 turns away, AH 4. Once we decide on whether to steal a worker or not, I'll continue with the next four turns (if it's ok) before handing off the save. By that time AH will be discovered and another discussion will probably be called for. And where the heck is Hamburg?

 

[The Simple Mind]

Further to my comments in post 60, don't steal the worker now. Once AH completes & if another worker steal opportunity occurs, if horses in the vicinity don't steal worker as we'll be attacking soon and we don't want ol' battleships to start producing units. If no horses, then steal worker as we'll not be attacking until we have iron and that'll be quite a few turns down the road.

Could Hamburg be 1S1W of the pigs or the tile below that one? If so, is ol' battleships likely to build the connecting road via the corn then 2S1E of Berlin? If so, another potential worker steal opportunity.

Looks like another marble with little or no food. Definitely not a wonders game.

 

[pholtz]

I think I"m starting to agree with you. Probably best not to steal a worker until we know a bit more, at least until after AH is discovered. But I'm going to wait for more input/guidance and see if S.ilvers' computer can be fixed. Sorry about your computer Silver.

Your comment about ol'Battleship training military often reminded me to look up his tendencies. It seems he will also DoW even when pleased although not as often as some others. Just another reason to take him out.

 

[IamJohn]

I agree with you guys, but remember the longer we wait the less we stall his growth, or at least the more we'll have to pillage to stall his growth.

 

[pholtz]

Since it was a bad idea to grab a worker now, I went ahead and did four more turns. Unexpectedly need to leave for work so here's a quick post.

2650 continued the game

Moving the warriors to check fog, Chagin starts making a farm. WHACK!

2625 BC (55):

I get first indication of where Hamburg is by the extension of some German border. looks like you were right Simple. WHACK!

2600 BC (56):

Some lions chasing a German scout to the east. Settler is done.
Dirk confirms the land ends just north of Berlin. Other warriors busy positioning themselves to see that the Settler gets to the hill safely. Settler starts his journey. Changed production to a worker. Tried combinations of tileworkers in the Capitol but anything else delayed the discovery of AH or didn't improve it any. WHACK!

2575 BC (57):

Lions and German scout disappear back into the fog. Checking the whip. It is down to
2 pop, so I revolt to Slavery with no anarchy. Spiritual is great! I whip the worker. WHACK

2550 BC (58):

AH is discovered, and there is Horse, 1W of our planned city location. Are we good or not .

The settler moves on top of "our" hill with the new warrior protecting, ready to settle next turn. Chagrin is still building a farm, the new worker starts making a mine.
Dirk and Lionus move back to spy on ol' Battleship. The overflow from the whip isn't much, but enough to build a new warrior with a bit of cash overflow. I set up the tile workers to maximize the cash. Thought about changing the build to a barracks but we need that warrior. However I think that can still be done if desired. Pottery is selected for our next research, but that could be changed also. Stopped before whacking.

Here is the ending territory. I didn't discover much that was new.

-----
Roster (when we're done discussing)
---
S.ilver
pholtz <-- Just Played --
The Simple Mind >> Up Next <<
IamJohn <-- On Deck --

And the end save:

View attachment aCK-3 BC-2550.CivBeyondSwordSave

I may be out of touch for 24 hours or so.

 

[The Simple Mind]

Excellent news about the horses. Looks like the rush will be on .

I'm at work at the moment so I'll download save & give thoughts tonight / tomorrow. Looking to play Saturday or Sunday (once everyone has given their comments / advice) and report by Monday.

Just to say, I'm going to out of the loop from Friday 25th Sep to Monday 28th Sep. Don't imagine that it will be back round to me by then but if it is please swap me with whoever is available.

 

[pholtz]

Where do we go from here?

First looking at the dot map. I like your yellow dot location TSM. Another possibility is on top of the silk, for reasons I'll shortly explain. Your green dot needs to be moved. I would suggest 2 north of the cows. The main reason for this is food. This whole map is short food and short rivers. Lets take a look at your green dot. The cow only gives us 2 extra food, not enough to expand a city past size 4 or so. The yellow dot isn't quite as bad, but the corn and cows still give us only 4 extra food.

The reason the red dot is doable is that it has grassland farmland with water. The horses actually took one of those away from us, but we have enough others. Now moving the green dot two north of the cows gives that city access to a couple of grassland farms. Moving the yellow dot on top of the silks would do the same, but overlap severely with the green dot.

Now if we leave your yellow dot where it is and move the green dot, both cities are limited to size 6 or so, which actually isn't too bad, as our cities are limited to size 4 anyway until we get some kind of relief for unhappiness. I don't see any other location that can grow even to size six, so I think these are the only two location possibly worth building. The clams might give us a bit of food, but there are no hammers to be found down there. Once we explore the shoreline a bit better, we may find another site.

So we are soon to have 2 cities with sites for 2 others, none of which are that great. I see the following as tasks to do.

1. Rush Germany
2. Build Barracks/Granaries and an Army.
3. Explore the other side of the mountain range to the west.
4. Add a city or two.

So I think our current cities should probably build barracks (after the Warrior now being completed) while growing. We might need extra Warriors but now that we are going to have access to horses, no more than one or two more. I would prefer we get some Chariots on line quicker, even without the Barracks promotion. We could use them to hunt animals/barbarians to get their experience, and one probably sent to the west to explore.

After Chagrin builds his farm he should probably start road building to the 2nd city. The other worker should probably help in this as soon as he finishes the mine. We need to get those horses connected to the capital as soon as possible. We probably need another worker, Constantinople should whip one when it regrows?

Our 2nd city needs a monument, barracks and granary. A monument isn't that important as we got both resources in the 1st circle, but eventually we'll need one to work the plains hill. So barracks first? If barracks isn't done when we finish researching pottery, then switch to granaries anyway? We badly need them to minimize the effect of whipping since we are so food poor.

I don't think we should rush for another settler, but we need to clear the forest off some hills to build more mines. I think any time we clear a forest in the capital we should make sure it goes into a Settler build. Eventually we need to send a settler to the yellow location I think. Forest clearing up in our second city may need to go into buildings.

Now can we rush Berlin with only Chariots and Warriors? If we do our first target has to be the copper. I don't know if there is a way to lure spearmen out of the city, but if he builds one or two we may have to do that. A Warrior in the woods, especially with a woodsman promotion or two will actually defend against a Spearman attack better than a chariot I think. We might want a warrior or two out attacking animals if any more are to be found to try and get those promotions? But the German war is a bit in the future.

Research order.. pottery - > iron working? I don't think we can risk delaying the rush by building libraries, so writing may not be that important right now. But as soon as the rush is done, we will be needing libraries badly. Maybe we can get a tech from Germany after we take Berlin for 10 turns of peace.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, I know some are obvious, but it helps me to write them down

 

[pholtz]

By the way, if any of you experience lurkers are out there, with Silver having his computer problems we could probably use some help. This doesn't look like too good a start

 

[IamJohn]

I don't think we should rush for another settler, but we need to clear the forest off some hills to build more mines. I think any time we clear a forest in the capital we should make sure it goes into a Settler build. Eventually we need to send a settler to the yellow location I think. Forest clearing up in our second city may need to go into buildings.

If we're going to chop the forest imo it should go into the chariots. If we're going to rush him we really need to push it. If we dwaddle to much we're going to make it much harder on ourselves, and make his army more dangerous and costly to defeat. IMO we need to research what we need to to get to the desired level of troops then build our army asap, and kill Berlin and the rest of the empire. Stopping to get writing, and building other builds really isn't the way to go imo.

Now can we rush Berlin with only Chariots and Warriors? If we do our first target has to be the copper. I don't know if there is a way to lure spearmen out of the city, but if he builds one or two we may have to do that. A Warrior in the woods, especially with a woodsman promotion or two will actually defend against a Spearman attack better than a chariot I think. We might want a warrior or two out attacking animals if any more are to be found to try and get those promotions? But the German war is a bit in the future.

Again, I feel that it shouldn't be considered to be in the far future. Additionally I'm really not sure that warriors are going to be all that helpful, it seems to me that they'd mainly be slowing down the army of chariots, to be used if somehow we leave only a couple defenders left and our chariots are dead/unable to attack.

Research order.. pottery - > iron working? I don't think we can risk delaying the rush by building libraries, so writing may not be that important right now. But as soon as the rush is done, we will be needing libraries badly. Maybe we can get a tech from Germany after we take Berlin for 10 turns of peace.

Why stop with just Berlin? Anything less imo, and we just slow ourselves down and create an enemy hellbent on killing us. And in anycase, you need alphabet to get techs, something that he won't have when we attack and hopefully capture Berlin.

I'm no expert in rushes, but we really need to pick our goal- building up to attack later, or hitting him as soon as possible. Trying to do both imo will simply slow both empires with out doing much other then getting us a mortal enemy at an early stage of the game where we need to be otherwise focusing on peace. We'll have time for libraries, etc once we've gained the advantage of capturing the German empire. We're not on prince anymore, we can't wait around for our own sweet time anymore, the AI is gunning for us.

 

[pholtz]

I don't think we should rush for another settler, but we need to clear the forest off some hills to build more mines. I think any time we clear a forest in the capital we should make sure it goes into a Settler build. Eventually we need to send a settler to the yellow location I think. Forest clearing up in our second city may need to go into buildings.

If we're going to chop the forest imo it should go into the chariots. If we're going to rush him we really need to push it. If we dwaddle to much we're going to make it much harder on ourselves, and make his army more dangerous and costly to defeat. IMO we need to research what we need to to get to the desired level of troops then build our army asap, and kill Berlin and the rest of the empire. Stopping to get writing, and building other builds really isn't the way to go imo.

Sounds good. So my question is, if we are going to do a Chariot rush as soon as possible, do we need 2 or 3 cities?

Edit: I'll try to answer my own question. I think we should go for a third city, but send Chariots to look in on Berlin as soon as possible. And if there is an opportunity to remove the copper mine before any spearmen are built, to do so.

 

[The Simple Mind]

I don’t think we can wait until we have a 3rd city if we want to chariot rush Berlin. Assuming we would go for yellow dot next, the time it takes to build a settler, connect the 3 cities and farm & pasture we would need to wait for IW and hope we had some.

Assuming we attack with 2 cities, if we change the current build from a warrior to a barracks, I reckon by turn 18 (assuming 2550BC is turn 1) we can have:

- the barracks built in Capital
- horse pasture and road to Capital completed on turn 17
- mine built on hill 2S of Capital but no farm on the spices
- 2nd city at size 2
- 2nd city completes barracks turn 19

All without any chopping or whipping. The whip anger in Cap disappears on turn 14 so I could whip the barracks if need be but I don’t see a benefit to this as we can’t produce chariots until turn 17 anyway. I too would prefer that all chopping & whipping goes into chariots. A chop would be ready to go into a chariot in the Cap 2 turns after the barracks is complete.

In the above scenario I have excluded granaries I have assumed the Cap will produce chariots mainly through chops with 1 or 2 whips and the 2nd city will only have one whip.

Regarding research. I’m in a bit of quandary what to research after pottery. Normally I’d go for writing for libraries and for the techs it opens up ie ABCs to allow us to build research post rush. But IW could be better in case we can’t finish off Germany early enough . I take it we are unlikely to have iron in the Cap as the hill 2S originally had forest though if we work the mine there is the slim chance it could pop there throught the game.

My gut reaction is that we should go for writing. Though I had a curry tonight so my gut might not be the best judge at the moment .

TSM

 

[pholtz]

I'll go along with a 2 city rush. The only thing I'm worried about is a spear. I have no idea how many chariots it would take to defeat a spear in a city. We do NOT want a failed attack on Berlin leaving a promoted spearman. That would be a disaster. I would say we need at least 2 chariots for each archer/axe we see, plus 2 more for a build. Plus 4 or 5 for a spear? Again no idea. With the territory around Berlin I don't think we can declare war and destroy the copper mine the same turn, so ol' Battleship will have one turn to whip a spear. Hopefully he'll be busy building something else. In the attack even the warriors we have available should be used. At least two chariots need to be coming from the north so they can pillage the copper and road as soon as possible.

I would say Ironworking just in case we need axes, but if we need axes, then our chariot rush failed . Assuming we take Berlin we may want Writing or even Fishing/Sailing to create a workboat for exploration and connecting our cities easier. Probably writing first.

I don't think you should give up on the farm being built. We need that food to recover from the whipping. Also, you mention changing the build to a Barracks. My concern here is that without a unit, Const has a cap of 4, 3 with whip unhappiness. I'm afraid that saving a few turns now will cost us more in the not to distant future.

Oh, and if you have the workers both building the road, don't group them. You may have them both building a road on the same square, but they should be doing so individually. This will occasionally save a worker turn as opposed to grouping them.

 

[The Simple Mind]

So, my first SG turn begins. Hopefully there isn't too much .

(0) 2550BC – As I said above, I change Cap build from warrior to barracks. Although another warrior would help with our strength ratio with Bismark, I think getting the barracks 5 turns sooner would be best. Tiles worked stay the same. Stop the irrigation of spices and will send Chargrin to build us a horse pasture.

(1) 2525BC – Thessalonica settled and Pottery is now 12 turns. Chagrin is on his way to round up them horses.

(2) 2500BC – Confirmed Hamburg settle on plains hill 1N of pigs. Fantastic, just what we need. Archers and possibly metal units fortified on a hill. When we capture this city I'd burn it to the ground.

(3) 2475BC – We get an event:

Not something we'll be pursuing any time soon as it looks like we'll be struggling to get 7 cities never mind 7 stables, but something to remember about. Will need to check if it is worth getting. And Chagrin begins the horse pasture.

(4) 2450BC – nothing

(5) 2425BC – The Capital's mine completes. Switched the Cap's tiles so that it is now working corn + mine and growth still due in 2 turns.

(6) 2400BC – Move the worker from mined hill to the spices.

(7) 2375BC – Worker begins to road spices. Bismark is teasing us as Berlin only has 1 archer. If only we had some units

(8) 2350BC – nothing

(9) 2325BC – Chagrin completes horse pasture + begins road. Lionus attacks lion at 0.2 strength (Odds 99.9%) and wins.

(10) 2300BC – Berlin has an axe (combat 1) + must have a barracks. Barb warrior spotted 3N2W of Thessa.

(11) 2275BC – Barb warrior disappears. We are 0.5 Bismarks strength + he is researching IW (21 turns).

(12) 2250BC – Pottery researched, Writing selected (14 turns). Barb warrior returns to the same location.

(13) 2225BC – And the barb disappears again.

(14) 2200BC – nothing, IBT look who turned up.

Oh boy!!

(15) 2175BC – Bismark has a settler. Now what useless tiles will he settle this time?

(16) 2150BC – Road completes to the Cap and Cap completes barracks, select chariot (9 turns).

(17) 2125BC – Chagrin begins cow pasture. Worker begins chop.

(18) 2100BC – Thessa grows to 2.

An unknown civ builds Stonehenge. Bismark founds Munich but where is it? Unfortunately, Berlin’s borders pop so we can no longer see units inside. Send Dirk to find Munich and stop on plains hill. Unfortunately, barb warrior revealed on adjacent tile. IBT barb warrior attacks but Dirk survives .

(19) 2075BC – Move Dirk to forest to heal (6 turns). Judaism founded in distant land.

(20) 2050BC – Cap whips chariot (7 turns to grow) and Thessa whips chariots (14 truns to grow).

(21) 2025BC – Chop completes.

(22) 2000BC – nothing

(23) 1975BC –Thessa’s cow pasture completes and now being worked. Growing in 8 instead of 11.

(24) 1950BC – nothing

(25) 1925BC – Writing completes, ABCs selected as placeholder.

The world as we know it:

I think Munich is 1E of the marble in the north.

The chariot in the Cap is 2 turns from completion. Do we whip it this turn? There will be a chop finished in the Cap in 3 turns. I still think we should rush Bismark (death or glory) as I can't see us being able to expand and survive otherwise.

How many chariots do we need? To take Berlin, I'd want at least 10. He'll have at least 2 units plus the opportunity to whip a spear.

Looking at Bismark's land, when we rush him Berlin is probably the only city we should keep.

I've sent a couple of chariots out exploring and hopefully get some XP. Open borders haven't been signed.

TSM

 

[pholtz]

Looks like some good playing TSM. I've downloaded the save and hope to comment tomorrow, whatever good my comments are

 

[Whosit]

The only thing I'm worried about is a spear. I have no idea how many chariots it would take to defeat a spear in a city. We do NOT want a failed attack on Berlin leaving a promoted spearman. That would be a disaster. I would say we need at least 2 chariots for each archer/axe we see, plus 2 more for a build. Plus 4 or 5 for a spear? Again no idea.

Oh, and if you have the workers both building the road, don't group them. You may have them both building a road on the same square, but they should be doing so individually. This will occasionally save a worker turn as opposed to grouping them.

Lurker Comment: If your enemy has spears, you probably want to abort. Straight up, Chariot vs. Spear is 4 vs. 8, and that turns into . . . very bad odds. A spear garrisoned in a city, with a fortification bonus and cultural defense is going to be worse. You can always open borders with Bismark and send a warrior or something to scout around and see what you'll be up against. If he has any spears already, you might want to change tactics.

However, I'm not an expert on early rushes, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

Chariots are good against axemen, though, but that's about it.

As far as the worker grouping, I take it you're referring to, well, actually grouping them. It's actually safe to do this as long as you are attentive. A road, for example, is 3 worker turns, so 2 grouped workers are contributing 4 worker turns to the road. In this case, pay attention for when the road finishes. One worker will still have move left, so you can break the group and send that one off to do something.

Still, it can often be more efficient for them to do separate things. But sometimes you just need an improvement and you need it now.

Since you have some chariots now, you can try to scout out Bismark's territory (chances are you're not going to attack in the next 10 turns, anyway). If you see any sign of heavy resistance, you may want to change tactics and aggressively expand, using your chariots to fogbust.

Worst-case scenario, you can settle locations that get a lot of green and you cottage them. Or farm them if you have a water source (like the lake east of your capital) and build mines and workshops elsewhere.

Edit: I apologize. I forgot that you don't have writing yet, right? So no open borders. I guess just do your best to figure out what he's got, and target his connection to metal asap.

 

[The Simple Mind]

Edit: I apologize. I forgot that you don't have writing yet, right? So no open borders. I guess just do your best to figure out what he's got, and target his connection to metal asap.

No apology / edit required, we got writing on the last turn of my set. And all advice is welcome.

We certainly have to consider how we proceed from here. There are a couple of chariots for exploring. One of which can saunter through Bismark's land once we have OB.

I meant to say in my report that none of the chariots have been promoted. I normally use the flanking promo but I'm not sure if that or combat would be better when assaulting Bismark's cities / spears.

TSM

 

[IamJohn]

I'll be playing late tonight if no one has anything else to discuss.

 

[The Simple Mind]

Just get a many chariots so we can Birmark.

What are your thoughts re tech? I picked ABCs because if we do but don't have enough chariots to wipe him out we may be able to get some techs in a peace treaty. Though it taking 37 turns means we might not have it in time.

 

[IamJohn]

Make an army, that I can do.

I did notice from the screenshots- we can get open borders with germany, so they must have writing.

 

[pholtz]

I haven't had a chance to look at the save yet. I would say open borders with ol' Battleship and send a Warrior in to scout? If the AI sees a mounted unit close by is he more likely to build a spear? I don't see any downside to opening borders with Shaka either. And we can get open borders because WE have writing

I would say that if you see more than one spear, we call off the rush and do some rethinking.