Acken's Minimalistic Balance for singleplayer (and AI improvements)

[Acken]

First you'll have to delete the NQMap (or Assignstartingplots.lua at least) since it conflicts with MoreLuxuries.

In the beliefs.sql file you should be able to delete everything before the follower beliefs. You would have to show me your log file database.txt and xml.txt after loading my mod for me to know what the problem may be.

You may have to look online how to activate logging

 

[Ravellion]

That's it, it works now! Thanks. It was probably either the NQMap, or I accidentally had a "comment out" where there shouldn't be one.

 

[Acken]

Well for the pantheons the NQMap shouldn't be the culprit but keeping its AssignStartingPlots file would conflict with the one from MoreLuxuries resulting (probably) in maps without any of the new luxuries.

 

[stormtrooper412]

I finally installed the mod

1. For some reason, the game started to hang i.e. didn't finish loading when I selected a NQ Pangaea map. NQ Continents and default maps all work. Perhaps it was on my end?

2. I missed the part of the development cycle where Assyria gets a Writer upon researching Writing, nice

now on to the good bits:

-Berserkers seem really really strong, 2 of them are enough to capture an expo not on a hill
-AI seem denounce happy, I was told to stop expanding, I told them to go shove it and I was denounced the next turn, working as intended?
-Romans are quite potent
-AI seems to be moving units around quite nicely, ranged units move and shoot first and then melee swoop in and finish, not bad.
-I like the pantheons
-There might be minor discrepancies with map generation. AFAIK ruins shouldn't be more than 3 tiles apart, but I saw them clustered together in one instance. Maybe that's due to the map script and not the mod itself?
-Same with luxuries, I don't remember ever having 4 copies around my capital

all in all, stellar work, DemiGod difficulty really hit the spot

 

[Acken]

1. That problem has been reported to happen. The script hangs into a while loop. Usually it happens only once in a while and only on map creation. Ideally what will happen in a future version is that I will rework the scripts myself entirely instead. But I'm a bit of a newbie when it comes to the map code.

2.
-Unique Units did not yet have a balance pass so some of them are stupid like Legion or Berserker.
-Yes and no. In fact the denunciation is a consequence of the AI being land greedy in the mod. The change is rather crude at the moment (it sees land, it wants land, it denounces, it dow) and could be improved I agree.
-Indeed... mostly because the legion is OP.
-Good
-Good
-Everything related to maps are due to the script. Never really saw a problem with ruins I'm surprised.
-The NQmod is more generous in ressources and luxuries. I personaly like that, Civ5 tiles are weak bonuses compared to civ4, getting more kinda compensates and leads to more fun game in my opinion.

 

[Dahebbie]

Why can't destroyers move after attacking? (Like the other water-melee.)

And what's with the repeated (interception 50) description in the text. Something to do with this mod?

Is there some way to disable giant death robots? (It's a little silly imo..)


Other then that, a very happy AMBM user says thx for all your work on the mod

 

[Acken]

Hmmm weird, definetely a bug with the destroyer.
Ok found it. It's a mistake on my end.
Just change:

UPDATE Unit_FreePromotions SET PromotionType='PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_III' WHERE UnitType='UNIT_DESTROYER';

to

UPDATE Unit_FreePromotions SET PromotionType='PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_III' WHERE UnitType='UNIT_DESTROYER' AND PromotionType='PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_II';

While you're at it, you can also fix triplane by replacing:

UPDATE Unit_FreePromotions SET PromotionType='PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_IV' WHERE UnitType='UNIT_TRIPLANE';

with

UPDATE Unit_FreePromotions SET PromotionType='PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_IV' WHERE UnitType='UNIT_TRIPLANE' AND PromotionType='PROMOTION_INTERCEPTION_III';

Or wait for me to push a new version with these corrections.

You can disable GDR by adding

DELETE FROM Units WHERE Type='UNIT_MECH';

in one of the mod sql file, doesn't matter which.

 

[Dahebbie]

Hi again

Thx.

Will these code strings take care of the destroyer not being able to move after attacking as well? (It looks as if at all relates to the interception-promos.)

Mech=GDR? (Would be logical if Mech=mech inf or something)

Best,

 

[SgtCiv]

Just curious about something.

I scanned through your change logs and I didn't see any mention of my question.
Would you ever be willing to add in support for "No more civilian traffic jams"?

I would like to try your MOD but that is almost one thing I can't live without. And with both your MOD's making changes to he DLL I can't.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Akbarthegreat]

Acken, is there a specific reason you've removed MP by default?

Like for example, do you think there will be issues if I play a human-only MP game with your mod?

 

[noto2]

Acken can I make a small suggestion about jungles? You have indirectly nerfed jungles because the only thing a player can do with them is either chop or place a trading post, and you've removed trading post beakers.

This has the unfortunate effect of making jungle starts even worse than they were, and they are already quite weak in the base game. I understand why you removed the beaker from trading posts but perhaps you could add a beaker to jungles somewhere to compensate. Perhaps universities should give 3B on jungle tiles instead of 2.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I agree with Noto's notion that jungle starts are way, way worse than in the base game, but for different reasons.

1) Jungle greatly hinders expansion, forcing you to turtle. But in AckenMod turtling is not only harder but much less rewarding.
2) Jungle hinders development because it slows down Workers by a large margin
3) Jungle hinders your production capabilities. iIf you have a jungle start you usually have very few or no pasture tiles, fewer strategic ressources (mainly horses) which means less gold and your hills are covered in Jungle, meaning that in order to get Settlers out fast you will often need Bronze Working for chopping down said hills.

I think giving Jungle tiles 3 Beakers with University is a little over the top, they're already good tiles after getting the Uni anyway. Really, what I would like is a strategic decision:

Do I chop some of my Jungles, greatly accelerate the early game but hinder my late game Bulbs?

Or do I leave the Jungle on, try to pull through the slow start and then catch up after Universities?

A very simple solution would be to either lower the amount of turns you need to chop a Jungle (it's ridiculous anyway) or give Jungle chops a little higher production value. I think the latter option is a relatively elegant solution and provides a decision for the player. It also makes it so that you could potentially get a Wonder even with a Jungle start, although it is going to be hard.

 

[Acken]

Hi again
Will these code strings take care of the destroyer not being able to move after attacking as well? (It looks as if at all relates to the interception-promos.)

Yes. The attackmove promotion was overwritten by the intercept.

Would you ever be willing to add in support for "No more civilian traffic jams"?

I would like to try your MOD but that is almost one thing I can't live without. And with both your MOD's making changes to he DLL I can't.

Maybe, I'm on the fence. It's a good QOL change but maybe a bit outside the scope of the mod.

Acken, is there a specific reason you've removed MP by default?

Like for example, do you think there will be issues if I play a human-only MP game with your mod?

Activating MP in a mod is useless anyway. All mod require you to do special manipulations afaik. This mod should be no exception.

I don't know about the MP stuff :/ Civ5 netcode is so bad that I'm not really sure how likely my changes are to give you desyncs. You can always try... But with MP why not test NQMod ?


@JungleSuggestions:
Jungles could act like forests maybe and/or allow lumbermills.

 

[yung.carl.jung]

I'm fairly certain that even if Jungles allowed Lumbermills a Jungle start will still irredeemably f u c k you up early game. I honestly don't think it's possible winning a Deity game (in the current state of the mod) if you start Jungle. As Noto said not only have Jungles been nerfed, but also the playing field has changed drastically, all the parameters have changed and we're now looking at a game where you literally cannot just found 3 cities and turtle until a Spaceship victory.

Jungle slows down any peaceful victory. Jungle slows down any attempt to get a wide empire. Jungle slows down any attempt at conquest by a large margin. Those are the only ways to catch up with the AI. Jungle is counter intuitive to every single victory condition right now.

 

[Akbarthegreat]

Activating MP in a mod is useless anyway. All mod require you to do special manipulations afaik. This mod should be no exception.

I don't know about the MP stuff :/ Civ5 netcode is so bad that I'm not really sure how likely my changes are to give you desyncs. You can always try... But with MP why not test NQMod ?

Yeah tried NQMod, its pretty good. Although I do miss the better AI from this mod.

 

[Acken]

I'm fairly certain that even if Jungles allowed Lumbermills a Jungle start will still irredeemably f u c k you up early game. I honestly don't think it's possible winning a Deity game (in the current state of the mod) if you start Jungle. As Noto said not only have Jungles been nerfed, but also the playing field has changed drastically, all the parameters have changed and we're now looking at a game where you literally cannot just found 3 cities and turtle until a Spaceship victory.

Jungle slows down any peaceful victory. Jungle slows down any attempt to get a wide empire. Jungle slows down any attempt at conquest by a large margin. Those are the only ways to catch up with the AI. Jungle is counter intuitive to every single victory condition right now.

I get it, my question is whether or not allowing LM and reducing chop time and giving some bonus on cut would fix that issue ? I'd think so since nobody complains about forests. Never understood why forest give production on cut but not jungles. Combining all these bonuses may even make jungle considering the university. If I were to make jungles act like forests then I think I'd go with the CPP route and make universities give forest and jungle +1 science.

Although maybe there is a solution that promotes diversity.

 

[chumchu]

1) Re: Jungle discussion

It is desirable to have variety in how good the land is as it makes some land desirable and some not. It drives conflict and keeps the game interesting. There is already a lot of randomness in starts, jungle is only part of it.

That being said, something should be done to make jungles more interesting. At the least allow lumber mills as the changes to trading posts would make most jungle tiles unimprovable.

Note that this is a big bonus as they end up as great 2 food/2hammer/2 science tiles. If we still want them to give science we need a malus to balance them with forest and plains. You can not buff them too much to compensate jungle being poor early as sometimes you conquer jungle or settle it later in the game and then you only get the upside.

I suggest we keep the longer improvement time as the main malus in jungles. Hammers on chops might be tested is it gives the player more interesting worker micro choices.

2) General comments on improvements/science/terrain

If we want to make micro more interesting we need more improvements to chose from. There is no good alternative to farms and mines and clear terrain. In Civ V the science on trading posts and jungles fills a hole left by the removal of cottages from Civ IV. Trading posts were imagined as such an improvement but they give gold, basically liquid production. However, science is the third key resource in the game. They were science improvements with the old rationalism which sort of brought back balance. The removal of science on them was needed in the nerf to rationalism but leaves a hole among the improvements

- Suggested change

Remove the science on jungles from education. Give it normal improvement time and chops. Add the following improvement:

Nature preserve
Buildable with education in forest, jungle, marsh, tundra, ice and desert tiles. Gives 1 culture. Also gives 1 science with Biology [or Scientific Theory?].

Then we would have a late game improvement that is trade-off with farms and mines without forcing players into rationalism. It gives the crucial resources for culture and science victories but at a trade-off in infrastructure. It gives a reason to preserve non-clear terrain. It gives a decent late game bonus to poor terrain. With the extra science on specialists in freedom this should probably be balanced with specialists as well.

3) Wild idea for making trading posts interesting

- Suggestion: Why not make trading posts work like Moai? Buildable only by luxuries and rivers. 1 gold + 1 gold per adjacent trading post.

Then we have encouraged specialisation, claiming of land and a trade-off with civil service farms. It should be in line with the 3-4 gold yield pictures by Acken. It is more spammable but also more of a sacrifice --> more interesting relevant decisions. The nerfs to purchasing and gold multipliers helps keep it in check if you get amazing river land. You could change hydro plant as well to make it owrk like other power plants.

 

[noto2]

I agree with Noto's notion that jungle starts are way, way worse than in the base game, but for different reasons.

1) Jungle greatly hinders expansion, forcing you to turtle. But in AckenMod turtling is not only harder but much less rewarding.
2) Jungle hinders development because it slows down Workers by a large margin
3) Jungle hinders your production capabilities. iIf you have a jungle start you usually have very few or no pasture tiles, fewer strategic ressources (mainly horses) which means less gold and your hills are covered in Jungle, meaning that in order to get Settlers out fast you will often need Bronze Working for chopping down said hills.

I think giving Jungle tiles 3 Beakers with University is a little over the top, they're already good tiles after getting the Uni anyway. Really, what I would like is a strategic decision:

Do I chop some of my Jungles, greatly accelerate the early game but hinder my late game Bulbs?

Or do I leave the Jungle on, try to pull through the slow start and then catch up after Universities?

A very simple solution would be to either lower the amount of turns you need to chop a Jungle (it's ridiculous anyway) or give Jungle chops a little higher production value. I think the latter option is a relatively elegant solution and provides a decision for the player. It also makes it so that you could potentially get a Wonder even with a Jungle start, although it is going to be hard.

What do you mean giving them 3 beakers with a university is over the top??? That's exactly what they get in the unmodded game. If you wanted to make the timing exactly the same as in the base game you could simply give them +2 beakers with a uni, and then +1 beaker with a rationalism policy. Even at 3 beakers with a uni, it's hardly OP. How many jungles do you get in your games?

 

[yung.carl.jung]

don't forget that science is much harder to come by in acken mod and the tech tree generally develops a little slower which means early and midgame science are absolute key.

growth has also been nerfed a little so generally people will put off working that scientist slot for a little longer.

rationalism is already very good, I tested it multiple times on the top 3 difficulties. I really dislike the idea of Jungle being trash early in the game and being great late in the game. I think we need a balance.

I'm not saying "over the top" as in "overpowered", I meant "unnecessary".

I think giving it more beakers is going in the wrong direction. Jungle-heavy cities usually lack hammers, not beakers. so I would agree with Acken's proposal of making Lumber Mills possible on Jungle, but I feel even then a little buff is still needed.

personally I think the fact that you have to delay Writing/Calendar for Bronze Working just so you can work your luxuries is already a big delay, I just do not see why chopping a jungle would take longer than a forest (from a balance pov).

 

[noto2]

Well, w/e. I thought we were taking a minimalist approach to this mod so, Acken changed trading posts and I doubt he meant to nerf jungles while he was at it, so I was just suggesting a quick fix to put jungles back to where they were last version. If we want to drastically change the jungle feature we can do that in another version.