Acken's Minimalistic Balance for singleplayer (and AI improvements)
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Acken
Deity
Yes, don't fear using melee units against a city.
Catapults are still somewhat sucky. Things get better at Trebuchet.
Catapults are still somewhat sucky. Things get better at Trebuchet.
noto2
Emperor
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I don't think I explained myself well. More cities will eventually lead to more science.
I can go with the Celts in Acken's Mod and get 15 cities, and eventually catch up to the AI in tech on demigod, but by eventually catch up I mean beat the AI in the space race. For 99% of the game I am behind in science. If I go 4 city tradition with Babylon I would expect the AI to catch up to me in science at some point, but I would also expect to be the tech leader for at least some of the game. But this does not happen. When I go 15 city Liberty with the Celts, or 12 cities with Rome, or 12 with Indonesia, or something like that, I'm behind in science the entire game up until the end. I would expect that. But no matter what I do, with Babylon or Korea, I can't get ahead in science, for any meaningful part of the game. I'm not complaining that I can't win with Babylon 4 city Tradition. I'm complaining that I can't even get ahead in tech and stay ahead for even the classic age...even with Babylon. By the medieval age the AI is already far ahead in science, even when I play Babylon.
Now, does this mean I lose? No. I can win a war and conquer the tech leader. That is one way to win. But part of the fun of Civ is being able to follow different paths to victory. I can conquer all day and night and win that way... but I'd like to try a game where I'm actually ahead in science and actually build lots of wonders and am the first to ideology...like I remember playing back at King difficulty. I just find it impossible to do at Demi-god. The ONLY way I can win demigod is war. How do you peacefully get a tech lead in the higher difficulty levels? Do people actually pull this off or do they play as I do - conquering the tech leader and stealing their wonders/good cities?
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
I don't get at all why that is important to you. Why do you expect to be ahead in anything playing at the (semi) highest difficulty? You can build wonders just fine, if anything getting wonders on AckenMod is easier than on regular Deity.. I suppose it's personal preference, but I don't see why this is meaningful at all.
>How do you peacefully get a tech lead in the higher difficulty levels? Do people actually pull this off or do they play as I do - conquering the tech leader and stealing their wonders/good cities?
As I said, by going peaceful wide. You cannot expect to found 3 or 4 cities and then somehow do better than someone with an empire twice your size. I won most of my AckenMod games without taking cities, mostly using war for Workers, Prophets, Pillage et cetera. Rapid expansion will be necessary in order to get the good city spots.
>How do you peacefully get a tech lead in the higher difficulty levels? Do people actually pull this off or do they play as I do - conquering the tech leader and stealing their wonders/good cities?
As I said, by going peaceful wide. You cannot expect to found 3 or 4 cities and then somehow do better than someone with an empire twice your size. I won most of my AckenMod games without taking cities, mostly using war for Workers, Prophets, Pillage et cetera. Rapid expansion will be necessary in order to get the good city spots.
I think this should be impossible. AFAIK the pathfinder for example cant upgrade twice. There was also a discussion a long time ago which proved this fact. Maybe Acken changed something(imo it would be a pretty cool feature).
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
It is possible to get a Pike from ruins and you are correct: Pathfinders can only upgrade once.
noto2
Emperor
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Why are you telling me this? I play wide all the time, I play Celts, Byzantium, Indonesia, and I do it well, and I can win on demigod. I'm trying to play a DIFFERENT way. I'm trying to win tall. If you don't know how to play tall then just let someone else who does chime in. I'm specifically asking for advice for tall play in Acken's mod, especially with respect to Babylon. I can win playing with other strategies, I'd like to win using this strategy because it's something new.
Does anyone do well playing tall in AM?
Acken
Deity
Is it v9? Is it save game compatible?
No. Yes.
No. Yes.
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
I already told you earlier how to win SV if you play tall. The only way to catch up is to go Autocracy and focus on tech steals. Read up on the spy mechanics.
Managed to win a single game like that and it was a struggle, I finished only two or three turns before the AI finished SV, in the early 260s, it needed multiple reloads.
You simply cannot keep up with the AI by playing how you play in the unmodded game, it is impossible. The change to GS killed tall SV forever (and it's a good thing IMO).
You can keep trying I guess, nothing wrong with that, I'm sure if you put some thought into it you can come up with a better strategy than mine. I simply don't see how you'll finish the tech tree at all with an empire that caps at 1000 beakers.
noto2
Emperor
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But it's exactly not how I play. I always play wide, which is probably why I suck playing tall.
And it's not about going 4 city tradition to a space win. It's about getting an early tech lead and then deciding what to do with it - often that involves going to war with a tech lead in the mid game, which is something I used to do in Civ4. I just wanted to know what it felt like to be the tech leader at some point in the game before the very end, or to go to war with a tech lead. These are things that I just never experience anymore. They aren't necessary to win, but it's a game, and I just wanted to have fun.
Going Autocracy solely for tech stealing sounds kind of funny...but maybe you're on to something. Maybe I'll try doing that with England next game. Anyway just have a week to kill before my new comp is delivered and then I can play new stuff. Have you tried Civ6 yet?
And it's not about going 4 city tradition to a space win. It's about getting an early tech lead and then deciding what to do with it - often that involves going to war with a tech lead in the mid game, which is something I used to do in Civ4. I just wanted to know what it felt like to be the tech leader at some point in the game before the very end, or to go to war with a tech lead. These are things that I just never experience anymore. They aren't necessary to win, but it's a game, and I just wanted to have fun.
Going Autocracy solely for tech stealing sounds kind of funny...but maybe you're on to something. Maybe I'll try doing that with England next game. Anyway just have a week to kill before my new comp is delivered and then I can play new stuff. Have you tried Civ6 yet?
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
I don't think you suck at playing tall, I've never managed a tech lead on either DemiGod or Deity and I've tried really, really hard. Had a Babylon game with 7 (!) coastal ressources and three early cargo ships to my cap, still wasn't first in science. This was before the buff to AI growth on Deity.
Playing a lot of Civ VI right now. In theory I love Civ VI - Some of the new changes are amazing and add a whole new level to strategic planning and micromanagement in Civ - District placement (and cost), adjacency boni, Eurekas and Government cards all force you to think way more about culture and tech path than you used to. Often times I will research most of my technologies halfway, will research social policies until there's one turn left and then switch.. It's all about maximizing eurekas and maximizing policy cards and it's the complete opposite of beelining. I never do that anymore..
Housing and amenities add a lot of micro, too. It has you thinking about expanding even late in the game (T100 or smth). Going away from percentage bonuses more towards raw science/culture means that small cities can be useful, going away from maluses for expanding mean that cities that are behind will not cripple you anymore. All good design decisions.
Some things are weird, like Great People and Specialists. Some GP are gamebreaking, some are useless. Some are generally useless, like GWAM when you're not going for a tourism victory. That really blows. I loved how in Civ V you had 2 different uses, I really miss that. Specialists now are kinda useless since GP are acquired passively or with gold/faith. I loved specialist micro so that's not so great.
Of course there's also negatives. The new movement system is garbage, I hate it. Melee units (Anticavalry line, Infantry line) are just ass. Unless they're my UU or a CS quest I never build them, ever. Horse units are universally better and you only need a single horse tile in your entire empire to build infinity horses. Ruins now give you Eurekas and Inspirations which blows really hard. Often times you are about to get the Eureka from the ruin anyway so it's just a wasted ruin in essence. Some ruins are also completely overpowered, like relics. Combat is a joke as of now and the AI seems even more incapable than in Civ V.
In general the AI is outright terrible and will never win a game before T300. Even on Deity. Game is full of bugs, exploits and imbalances, but I don't really care for those. It has potential to be even better than Civ V and that's what really counts.
Playing a lot of Civ VI right now. In theory I love Civ VI - Some of the new changes are amazing and add a whole new level to strategic planning and micromanagement in Civ - District placement (and cost), adjacency boni, Eurekas and Government cards all force you to think way more about culture and tech path than you used to. Often times I will research most of my technologies halfway, will research social policies until there's one turn left and then switch.. It's all about maximizing eurekas and maximizing policy cards and it's the complete opposite of beelining. I never do that anymore..
Housing and amenities add a lot of micro, too. It has you thinking about expanding even late in the game (T100 or smth). Going away from percentage bonuses more towards raw science/culture means that small cities can be useful, going away from maluses for expanding mean that cities that are behind will not cripple you anymore. All good design decisions.
Some things are weird, like Great People and Specialists. Some GP are gamebreaking, some are useless. Some are generally useless, like GWAM when you're not going for a tourism victory. That really blows. I loved how in Civ V you had 2 different uses, I really miss that. Specialists now are kinda useless since GP are acquired passively or with gold/faith. I loved specialist micro so that's not so great.
Of course there's also negatives. The new movement system is garbage, I hate it. Melee units (Anticavalry line, Infantry line) are just ass. Unless they're my UU or a CS quest I never build them, ever. Horse units are universally better and you only need a single horse tile in your entire empire to build infinity horses. Ruins now give you Eurekas and Inspirations which blows really hard. Often times you are about to get the Eureka from the ruin anyway so it's just a wasted ruin in essence. Some ruins are also completely overpowered, like relics. Combat is a joke as of now and the AI seems even more incapable than in Civ V.
In general the AI is outright terrible and will never win a game before T300. Even on Deity. Game is full of bugs, exploits and imbalances, but I don't really care for those. It has potential to be even better than Civ V and that's what really counts.
I don't think it's a good idea to kill the tall SV forever. I never feel it appropriate to kill any strategy entirely. Playing tall or wide has been a crutial choice in Civ 5 and they should both be viable options.
BTW, is this your website?
http://www.carlsguides.com/strategy/civilization5/
Hey Acken, what's the purpose of fixed GS science boost on creation? That's such a nerf on GS. We now have a GS slot in library so we can start generating GS early on. I can probably get a GS before 100t. However, this GS is only useful if I save it and boost my science later on when my science output is is significantly larger. If GS boost is fixed on creation, a pre 100t GS would be useless. Then what's the point of the slot in library?
Acken
Deity
You can make an Academy which gets significant boosts in the mod
But admitedly GP balance has always been meh in the mod because I cannot completely fix the issue.
I have had the idea of simply making GSs work like GMs but I didn't commit.
Never liked GS herds that you pick around for later so for now it stays as is.
But admitedly GP balance has always been meh in the mod because I cannot completely fix the issue.
I have had the idea of simply making GSs work like GMs but I didn't commit.
Never liked GS herds that you pick around for later so for now it stays as is.
Acken
Deity
So they gave up on the whole strategic resources being quantified??? Why would they do that
Thanks for the write up. Bad AI is expected with Firaxis. Maybe Acken will get around to looking at it
Yes but the strategic resources is a rather minor issue in civ6. Right now I can't even "fix" the game because the AI is too horrible. Civ5 AI was functionning somewhat properly at its core so that adjustment were possible.
Also because of balance and exploits issues it's impossible to truly know where to start with. I'll wait to see what Firaxis does on Civ6 first. Meanwhile I'm already moving on to other games.
If so, I would never start generating GS until 30 turns before the crucial tech I want, for example, dynamite for domination or some late game tech for SV. Given that the science output of scientist slots is reduced, there's even less benefit from filling in the scientist slots early on. Getting a GS early would not boost science much and instead increase the cost of GS in the future. I think this is kinda broken. Could you consider make it more balanced? Thank you.
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
It is not my website, though he does post on this forum!
For me personally tall science is a playstyle that had to go, because the AI cannot do anything against it. 4 cities settled in defensive locations are almost impossible for the AI to take because they're just terrible at combat. This in turn means that if 4 cities are enough to win SV before the AI does, you literally cannot lose. Which kills the game. I don't want to play a game that I can't lose, because it's technically not a game anymore. If you want to, then Civ V unmodded is really what you want
