Acolytes from dungeons

[KingOfLands]

Downloading .40 now, but in the course of the various games I played in anticipation of it, I did notice one thing that bugs me a little.

I'm not sure that the current system whereby one of the dungeon exploration results is to rescue a disciple works as intended or as it ought to. It's not that I don't enjoy founding the Empyrean in year 90 (in fact, it saved my bacon in a game with the Sidar since it helped me ally with Varn's giant pile of swordsmen), but it seems a little weird to me that I can get disciples of religions that haven't been founded by anyone yet. Flavor-wise, this makes a little sense - this guy I've rescued is obviously some sort of relative of John the Baptist - but it still feels a bit weird.

On a vaguely-related note, the Timor mask did not seem to save Barnaxus from being wrecked by a Grigori hero in another of my games, but that may well have been because he was a hero.

 

[Kadeon]

The disciple problem you mentioned was supposed to have ben fixed in .34 patch b.

 

[KingOfLands]

The disciple problem you mentioned was supposed to have ben fixed in .34 patch b.

Good to see that my gift for finding antique problems despite believing I'm up to date persists.

I'll see if it happens again under .40, though I doubt it will.

 

[Verily]

The disciple problem you mentioned was supposed to have ben fixed in .34 patch b.

No. It's an intentional feature. It was never "fixed" because it's not "broken".

 

[Sarisin]

Yeah, I think that was the way it worked in .34 and continues to work the same way in .40.

You can get the disciples, etc. from lairs/dungeons as soon as you have researched Mysticism, I think. At least I have never gotten one until I researched that tech.

Then, you can found the religion with that disciple and get the holy city. You can convert to it as your state religion. You can even build the wonder, however you cannot build temples, heroes, special units, etc. until you research the associated tech. If you use a Disciple of Leaves this way, you will get Ancient Forests.

 

[KingOfLands]

Yeah, I think that was the way it worked in .34 and continues to work the same way in .40.

You can get the disciples, etc. from lairs/dungeons as soon as you have researched Mysticism, I think. At least I have never gotten one until I researched that tech.

Then, you can found the religion with that disciple and get the holy city. You can convert to it as your state religion. You can even build the wonder, however you cannot build temples, heroes, special units, etc. until you research the associated tech. If you use a Disciple of Leaves this way, you will get Ancient Forests.

Yep, that was my experience with Empyrean and with RoK in a different game. I was getting hopeful about Rathas but had no access to them until I actually had Honor, IIRC.

 

[Kadeon]

Whoops, my bad. Misread what was said and jumped the gun, I'm wrong!

 

[zup]

So far I don't mind it. But if an ai beats my beeline strategy with it, you'll be sure to hear.

 

[KillerClowns]

Disciples of undiscovered religions, IIRC, are an Epic Good result; they're most likely to come from Epic Dungeons, and quite rare otherwise. Epic Good seems to sum up the effect of founding a religion so early.

 

[Sarisin]

So far I don't mind it. But if an ai beats my beeline strategy with it, you'll be sure to hear.

\

One reason I like this is that I am often able to be the AI's beeline strategy to founding a religion. Nothing is more satisfying than popping a Thane or Disciple and beating the Dwarves to ROK or the Elves to FOL. Even so you often have to maneuver your guy back to your city to found the religion. He can die on the way or it can take long enough that the Elves or Dwarves still beat you with their beelining.

I've been lucky enough to found at least one religion per game (even ones I'd normally not choose i.e. the Order for Sheaim) with these lair/dungeon results.

 

[xienwolf]

Fear only works 90% of the time, so some units can break through and attack even without Courage.

 

[Sarisin]

Fear only works 90% of the time, so some units can break through and attack even without Courage.

Um, wrong thread with this comment, xienwolf?

 

[xienwolf]

Response to the second part of the OP's questioning.

 

[megamanx06]

ya he had two parts. but for the first part, finding disciples of religions that haven't been founded seems kind of dumb, imo... i'm not an expert on FfH lore (the civilopedia is only so helpful...), but i assume this happens because the religions already existed, and are just being reorganized? even with this, though you would think religions such as empyrian would not be founded by some wandering disciple, as it has a specific purpose to the age of rebirth.

 

[Black Attila]

Disciples of undiscovered religions, IIRC, are an Epic Good result; they're most likely to come from Epic Dungeons, and quite rare otherwise. Epic Good seems to sum up the effect of founding a religion so early.

I just got an acolyte from a lizardman Ruins, definately not an epic lair.

 

[scutarii]

very early FOL means absolutely everyone free food and hammers from ancient forests... Consider that before turn 100 even workers have not improved everything due to lack of appropriate technologies.

 

[KingOfLands]

Fear only works 90% of the time, so some units can break through and attack even without Courage.

Just my bad luck, then? I can live with that.

Fear always feels completely reliable when it's on someone else's units, but that's just observation bias talking I suppose.

 

[hbar]

Disciples of undiscovered religions, IIRC, are an Epic Good result; they're most likely to come from Epic Dungeons, and quite rare otherwise. Epic Good seems to sum up the effect of founding a religion so early.

I actually think they are just good results. I don't have the base code here, just MarnokMod, but I don't think he changed that and it is definitely in the 'good' list

Spoiler :

lCategoryGood = {
			'DEFAULT': ['HIGH_GOLD', 'TREASURE', 'EXPERIENCE', [B]'PRISONER_RELIGIOUS'[/B], 'METAL_WEAPONS', 'MINOR_ITEM', 'MINOR_ITEM', 'MINOR_ITEM'],
			'IS_ALIVE': ['SPIRIT_GUIDE'],
			'IS_MELEE': ['ENCHANTED_BLADE'],
			'IS_RECON': ['POISONED_BLADE'], 
			'IS_DISCIPLE': ['SHIELD_OF_FAITH'],
			'IS_ADEPT': ['SPELLSTAFF'],	
			}

 

[Methuselah]

I actually think they are just good results. I don't have the base code here, just MarnokMod, but I don't think he changed that and it is definitely in the 'good' list

Spoiler :

lCategoryGood = {
			'DEFAULT': ['HIGH_GOLD', 'TREASURE', 'EXPERIENCE', [B]'PRISONER_RELIGIOUS'[/B], 'METAL_WEAPONS', 'MINOR_ITEM', 'MINOR_ITEM', 'MINOR_ITEM'],
			'IS_ALIVE': ['SPIRIT_GUIDE'],
			'IS_MELEE': ['ENCHANTED_BLADE'],
			'IS_RECON': ['POISONED_BLADE'], 
			'IS_DISCIPLE': ['SHIELD_OF_FAITH'],
			'IS_ADEPT': ['SPELLSTAFF'],	
			}

Yeah, a disciple is a "good" result in FFH. The "epic good" ones are the great people, and the items like the timor mask.

 

[EmptyWolf]

I just got an acolyte from a lizardman Ruins, definately not an epic lair.

I think epic good/bad results can happen very rarely from standard lairs.