Actual Triangle Trade [ACCEPTED]

[Ramstormp]

I wish, LOL, how about minutes, and that was ... if memory serves right ... with turbo already

obviously my memory is now like my Amiga still is, wherever she rests. Time flew.

 

[raystuttgart]

My sympathetic nervous system informs me that I am being pawned off like eine kleine deutschemarco in a highly entertaining game of trumpian 8D chess, or might I have had me an episode of dissociative fugue?

Sorry, I somehow quoted you instead of Nightinggale...

I am somteimes writing too many posts in parallel.
Especially since I have to catch up a lot again with posts after 2 months of hospital and rehab.

Then I sometimes copy & paste "Quote Starts" (in long posts) because actually quoting small post snipplets
by the "+Quote" is too inefficient and slow for me ...

 

[raystuttgart]

I am trying to visualize exactly what the exploit is supposed to be.

The exploit could be:
(Only talking about "Part 1")

Making money too easily and without risk or negative aspects for strategy

• Nobody can attack a Ship in "Travel Mode" (no risk)
  
• Nothing has to be produced, built or really considered strategically (too easy)
• Using available / currently unneeded Ships to buy cheap and sell expensive is a no-brainer (no real decision)
• Then additionally massively buyin Slaves that are also cheap is also a no-brainer (no real decision)

I am simply worried that this feature will always be used because it might simply get a no-brainer.
(Every time you sail from Colonies and Europe you will always also sail to Africa - because there is no better choice)

No-brainers are bad for game design.
(And yes, we already have some but I would like to step by step get rid of them.)

----------

To summarize my current problem with the concept:

• I am afraid that this strategy might become overpowered.
• And I also consider it a bit boring, because there is absolutely no surprise and risk in it.
• There is also almost no interaction with other game concepts. (No impact to other gameplay)
• AI will not have any chance to properly use it. I need to give it compensation.

I simply hate to implement such features without surprise, without risk and without real impact to other game concepts.
(I do not want this to become a feature where you just compare a few numbers like an accountant ...)

I also do not want to further weaken AI relatively to Human player
And this concept could do so a lot.

----------

Thus I am trying to come up with things that do this:

• adding a little risk
• adding a little surprise
• adding a little flavour
• adding some restrictions
• figure out good compensation for AI

I feel it has potential but I simply want to make this concept better.
(Then I have no issue anymore in implementing it.)

---

By the way:

I am only worried about Part 1 (Direct Travel between Europe and Africa) and not about the rest.
Part 2 (Travel Time System Overhaul as suggested by @Nightinggale ) and Part 3 (Travel Time Rebalancing) are awesome concepts.

 

[Nightinggale]

I am only worried about Part 1 (Direct Travel between Europe and Africa) and not about the rest.

It might make Africa more attractive. Currently I do not use it much and feel like it's an overlooked feature.

I am not glorifying loading times between turns in this game - they provide very little anticipation or satisfaction

There is no "loading times between turns". The game loads at startup and once the main menu is reached, the game is loaded. Disk access after that is for logging, saving etc.

The freeze between turns is the CPU deciding what the AI should do. Yes it's not a wanted feature and with each release, the wait is shorter due to optimizing the code. I reduced the waiting time by around 40% while the mod was still called RaR. It's still an ongoing process. Ideally there is no waiting time, but that could be hard to achieve. Doesn't mean we aren't trying.

 

[raystuttgart]

It might make Africa more attractive.

There is no "might" (in terms of eventuality) for me, when I look at my current concept containing these 2 features

• Direct Travel Between Europe and Africa (and vice versa)
• Travel Time System Overhaul / Travel Time Re-Balancing

I look at it and see with certainty, that travelling from Europe first to Africa and then to the Colonies is a "no-brainer".
It will be strategically the only really smart thing to do.

• Trade Profits
  
• Slaves
  
• Travel Round Trip Time

Otherwise it will not be "immersive" and not historically correct anymore.
(Because in reality of the past it also was a "non-brainer" and extremely profitable.)

-----

Thus I just want to still think a little bit more of this:
(To keep it "immersive" and interesting but to avoid it becoming overpowered.)

• adding a little risk / surprise (e.g. Yields in Africa increasing / decreasing more frequently / unpredictable)
  
• adding a little flavour (e.g. some Events and Quests, a "Slave Ship", ...)
  
• adding some restrictions (e.g. Cargo Slot Restrictions)
  
• figure out good compensation for AI (e.g. some compensation)

-----

Currently I do not use it much and feel like it's an overlooked feature.

I agree that it is currently not a really important feature, but I still use it every game.
(Mostly for selling goods if their price is better there than in Europe once I traded too much in Europe.)

I would really like to make it more important, more intersting and thus I like the general idea of "Triangle Trade".
But again, I simply do not want to create an overpowered exploit that creates and exteme disadvantage for AI.

-----

So again, the general idea is great.
I simply still have issues in the concept that I have not yet solved.
(Thus still trying to optimize the concept by minor changes.)

 

[Ramstormp]

The exploit could be:
(Only talking about "Part 1")

Making money too easily and without risk or negative aspects for strategy

• Nobody can attack a Ship in "Travel Mode" (no risk)
  
• Nothing has to be produced, built or really considered strategically (too easy)
• Using available / currently unneeded Ships to buy cheap and sell expensive is a no-brainer (no real decision)
• Then additionally massively buyin Slaves that are also cheap is also a no-brainer (no real decision)

I am simply worried that this feature will always be used because it might simply get a no-brainer.
(Every time you sail from Colonies and Europe you will always also sail to Africa - because there is no better choice)

No-brainers are bad for game design.
(And yes, we already have some but I would like to step by step get rid of them.)

----------

To summarize my current problem with the concept:

• I am afraid that this strategy might become overpowered.
• And I also consider it a bit boring, because there is absolutely no surprise and risk in it.
• There is also almost no interaction with other game concepts. (No impact to other gameplay)
• AI will not have any chance to properly use it. I need to give it compensation.

I simply hate to implement such features without surprise, without risk and without real impact to other game concepts.
(I do not want this to become a feature where you just compare a few numbers like an accountant ...)

I also do not want to further weaken AI relatively to Human player
And this concept could do so a lot.

----------

Thus I am trying to come up with things that do this:

• adding a little risk
• adding a little surprise
• adding a little flavour
• adding some restrictions
• figure out good compensation for AI

I feel it has potential but I simply want to make this concept better.
(Then I have no issue anymore in implementing it.)

---

By the way:

I am only worried about Part 1 (Direct Travel between Europe and Africa) and not about the rest.
Part 2 (Travel Time System Overhaul as suggested by @Nightinggale ) and Part 3 (Travel Time Rebalancing) are awesome concepts.

Are not all those exploits are already in effect in the current version? Just costs a little extra in terms of annoyance, turns and clicks to buy horses, sail from Europe to the edge of the map then immediately sail to Africa without the ability to be attacked by pirates (or is there a moment at the end of the previous turn where you are vulnerable to an attack? I forget). Maybe make a barbary pirates random event that effects ships in TRAVEL_STATE_TO_AFRICA and reduces amount of yield stored on some types of ships more than others? Either way will you not need to put on that incredible Ludwig van genius hat and come up with something, and not leave it just as it is?

 

[Ramstormp]

There is no "loading times between turns". The game loads at startup and once the main menu is reached, the game is loaded. Disk access after that is for logging, saving etc.

The freeze between turns is the CPU deciding what the AI should do. Yes it's not a wanted feature and with each release, the wait is shorter due to optimizing the code. I reduced the waiting time by around 40% while the mod was still called RaR. It's still an ongoing process. Ideally there is no waiting time, but that could be hard to achieve. Doesn't mean we aren't trying.

I don't know my terms very well, sorry if it was confusing. Thank you for all that you have accomplished so far to make it faster.

 

[raystuttgart]

Just costs a little extra in terms of annoyance, ...

You 100% prove my point in terms of game design actually.
This is exactly what I was trying to explain to all of you.

Currently there is much more "cost" for travelling to Africa and thus it is much less "exploitive".
My new concept removes really a lot of "cost" and thus lets it become much more "exploitive".

----

It is the sum of consequences of both of these together:
(The way I want to implement them will make Triangle Trade "immersive" and thus more powerful.)

• Direct Travel Between Europe and Africa (and vice versa)
• Travel Time System Overhaul / Travel Time Re-Balancing / Asymetric Travel Times

----

Whenever you add "benefits / advantages", you also need to balance it with "costs / disadvantages".
Thus I still have to improve my concept to do so ...

-----

All I want to add to the concept is small stuff like this:

• adding a little risk / surprise (e.g. Yields in Africa increasing / decreasing more frequently / unpredictable)
  
• adding a little flavour (e.g. some Events and Quests, a "Slave Ship", ...)
  
• adding some restrictions (e.g. Cargo Slot Restrictions)
  
• figure out good compensation for AI (basically a small cheat)
• ...

Then I am almost already happy.
(The feature will not be simply a "no-brainer" anymore that will become a huge disadvantage for AI.)

 

[inaiwae]

I voted yes, but I am kind of thorn on this one ... I would definitely enjoy some new flavour and maybe some risks/surprises by such a triangle travel addition, but I don't want restriction and AI compensation become too punitive if one decides not to take part in triangle trade if it becomes too powerful, but stays not very interactive ... sending ships between 2 foreign ports can become boring pretty quickly, and I am not sure how to make it more fun ...

 

[raystuttgart]

@inaiwae

Restrictions will not be "punitive" just for Triangle Trade, they will become part of the complete game design.
Thus this will become nicely integrated in the whole game because it will make all Ships more interesting.

• Cargo Slot Restrictions

AI compensation I am currently only planning to give AI, if player uses the Africa.
(e.g. AI gets some "compensation" every time a Playe Ship set sails Africa.)
It is a cheat yes, but AI will not be able to use this feature as strategic as Human and it needs some "help" anyways.

... sending ships between 2 foreign ports can become boring pretty quickly ...

I agree, that is why I plan to spice it up.

----

Summary:

This is not one single feature we are talking about, it is again a "game mechanic" of the size of e.g. "Happiness", with many small aspects integrated.

• Direct Travel Europe and Africa
• Travel System Overhaul / Travel Time Overhaul (as discussed with @Nightinggale)
  
• Cargo Slot System Overhaul
• Maybe Adding new Ships like e.g. Slave Ship
  
• Africa Pricing Rebalancing (faster / less predictable price increases / decreases)
• Python Trade Quests for Africa (similar to new Trade Quests for Europe)
• Python Events for Africa related to Triangle Trade (e.g. Slave Auction, Slave Ship, Price Events for Goods, ...)
  
• Compensation Logic for AI for Africa (because AI will really need it)
• ...

 

[raystuttgart]

Ok, finished my game design concept and I am really happy with it.
In the end it became just a "little bit" bigger than originally expected ...

• It should now seemingly integrate into the vision of the mod and smoothly blend with the rest of the game design.
• It now really has impact and purpose for the overall game play without being overpowered.

Now back to my morning coffee and newspaper before my meetings start ...

Edit:

All 7 parts of the concept have now been integrated in the start post of this thread.
I really feel that it has become a challenging and interesting concept worth to be implemented.

 

[modmod]

If you play on some gigantic Caribbean map (not sure it exists) it might take a handful of turns to get from Puerto Rico to Havana, how does it make any reasonable sense at all for the trip to take only two turns to Europe even if one turn equals half a year?

You might have a situation where a neighboring settlement is 3 turns away (perhaps 3 days to walk in real life), and the neighbor declares war; but you can with all your saved up riches buy a ship and army in Europe and get to your colony faster than they can.

You made a valid point.
There should be some variable which count with the map size, and adds some extra move points for units on gigantic maps, especially at sea.
Many of us faced the same reality, when a nearby inland colony is some more turns away, than Europe or Africa there and back.

to simply add roads some extra cannot solve it, also gets unbalanced for smaller maps. And do nothing with sea.

 

[raystuttgart]

There should be some variable which count with the map size

Guys, do not worry too much.

But movement points will definitely not be changed.
Instead we will completely rebuild and rebalance the Travel Time System.

Travel System Overhaul / Travel Time Overhaul (as discussed with @Nightinggale)

1. We will change "Europe / Africa / Port Royal Travel Time" (Turns) to "Europe / Africa /Port Royal Travel Distance" (Plots)
2. Europe Travel Distance will feel much more impactful as today. (Current Europe Travel Times are a joke, compared to Map Travel)

It will be nicely balanced for "Gigantic Maps" by "default settings" of the new Travel System.
(So that is definitely taken care of and can be adjusted easily anyways.)

Had to correct this:
(Answer see here.)

Spoiler :

Implementing a Modifier for Intercontinental Travel in "MapSizes" will also not be much effort.
(But these settings will be in MapSizeInfos.xml.)

 

[modmod]

Considering the Travel Times, ok we can have 4 XML files instead of 1 if you feel it is better.
It does not really matter at all since we simply read a simple Integer for each Travel Direction, that is it already.

• EuropeInfos.xml --> Colonies to Europe and Back (from East, West, North, South)
  
• AfricaInfos.xml --> Colonies to Africa and Back (from East, West, North, South)
• PortRoyalInfos.xml --> Colonies to Port Royal and Back (from East, West, North, South)
• TriangleTradeInfos.xml --> Direct Travel between Europe and Africa (Europe to Africa, Africa to Europe)

This sounds still easy to mod for me the actual travel times by integer numbers.

But to refer for one commenter:
That would be also good if there is another ones positive or negative which count with map size and modify the base travel time. Eg. on small maps decrease, on gigantic increase.

 

[raystuttgart]

Eg. on small maps decrease, on gigantic increase.

See here.

----

But most important to understand:

Travel Time (Turns) - e.g. between Colonies and Europe - will become Travel Distance (Plots)
Thus "Map Travel" and "Intercontinental Travel" will more or less follow the same rules.
(e.g. Ships that are fast on the Map will also travel fast between Colonies and Europe.)

The concept idea @Nightinggale had is simply brilliant !!!

Do not worry, if you do not yet understand all details and impacts though.
Simply let yourself be surprised by the result.

 

[raystuttgart]

Need to correct myself.

Sorry this is a really bad idea:

For good reason, neither Travel Speed on Map, nor Travel Time between continents were ever modified by MapSizes.
I will definitely not do it in my concept.

The MapSizes are simply intended to feel different and all further balancing would get a mess.
(Properly balancing Ship Speeds, Bonus Modifiers, Promotions would become impossible ...)

Thus, this is cancelled:

Implementing a Modifier for Intercontinental Travel in "MapSizes" will also not be much effort.
(But these settings will be in MapSizeInfos.xml.)

 

[modmod]

The exploit could be:
(Only talking about "Part 1")

Making money too easily and without risk or negative aspects for strategy

• Nobody can attack a Ship in "Travel Mode" (no risk)
  
• Nothing has to be produced, built or really considered strategically (too easy)
• Using available / currently unneeded Ships to buy cheap and sell expensive is a no-brainer (no real decision)
• Then additionally massively buyin Slaves that are also cheap is also a no-brainer (no real decision)

To summarize my current problem with the concept:

• I am afraid that this strategy might become overpowered.
• And I also consider it a bit boring, because there is absolutely no surprise and risk in it.
• There is also almost no interaction with other game concepts. (No impact to other gameplay)
• AI will not have any chance to properly use it. I need to give it compensation.

I simply hate to implement such features without surprise, without risk and without real impact to other game concepts.
(I do not want this to become a feature where you just compare a few numbers like an accountant ...)

I also do not want to further weaken AI relatively to Human player
And this concept could do so a lot.

----------

Thus I am trying to come up with things that do this:

• adding a little risk
• adding a little surprise
• adding a little flavour
• adding some restrictions
• figure out good compensation for AI

I feel it has potential but I simply want to make this concept better.
(Then I have no issue anymore in implementing it.)

oh-ko

To buy cheap and sell expensive actually the point - for me for sure.
If you think about it: that was the whole point of the real colonization, fueled by merchants, and big xy India Companies. Trade itself.
Also the enpower of home countries: natives sold their riches for cheap, colonies produced materials, and finished goods for long time come from Europe to the colonies as expensive goods (for natives even more expensive).

As for Africa again that was the whole point: merchants delivered goods, and local tribes sold slaves for goods. Some fine tools or blades, and they sold an entire subjugated village for slave traders.

About surprises/ risks:
When full triangle trade in place that can be solved by random events which affect ships on travels.

Like:
- Ship get into storm: get travel penalty, gets some damage, in RARE cases (like 1-2% chance) a slave ship sink
- No wind: ship stuck for some extra turn, food spoiled
- Ship attacked: by sea monster, pirates, European forces (if there are wars back home)
- Mutiny with small chance (like 1-2%): ship lost, becames pirate
- Disease: slaves ship arrives, but slaves actually died during voyage

So something NEW is I believe better than affect existing ones.

AI "compensation":
Simply AI also can trade more: add trade routes (depending on nation) for them which includes Africa if prices there are far more favorable, or if they cannot trade a certain good with Europe (is fur party apply to AI -eg. do they deny extra tax rates for kings?).
But AI also should suffer from the random events.

 

[modmod]

Need to correct myself.

Sorry this is a really bad idea:

For good reason, neither Travel Speed on Map, nor Travel Time between continents were ever modified by MapSizes.
I will definitely not do it in my concept.

(Properly balancing Ship Speeds, Bonus Modifiers, Promotions would become impossible ...)

Thus, this is cancelled:

That is really sad.

But as soon as there will be dormant entries to configure it by integers in either Worldinfos or Mapsizeinfos:
Then I configure it for myself for sure.
At least give extra (move for units/ travel time between EU - NW - A (but if becames distance system then no neeed)) on huge/ gigantic maps.

For ships/ units base speed.
Yet would be furtunate if in Unitinfos and Professioninfos files there would be also a modifier for huge/ gigantic maps, as <speedmodifier_map_huge> <speedmodifier_map_gigantic> then units can be configured separately too, not just as globals for naval/ land units.

I not plan it for promotions (touch it by it means).
Bonus modifiers: not sure.

Edit:
For this I made a separate topic:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/map-size-and-movement-compensation.670012/

 

[raystuttgart]

@modmod:

My complete concept for this is done.
Thanks for your input, but I do not need any more ideas.

This is what I offer community and this is what it can get from me, if it wants it.
All I still need to know if the WTP team also wants to have it or not.

Many things you suggest are not even technically possible with current mod capabilities:

...which affect ships on travels.

Simply AI also can trade more: add trade routes (depending on nation)

...

---

So something NEW is I believe better than affect existing ones.

I am not interested to dicuss feature ideas in this thread that are not part of this concept.
If you have feature ideas of your own, please create separate threads.

I have checked very properly about risk, efforts, technical impacts, ...
(And I really know how much effort and rsik I am willing to take into this.)

And of course this is also my personal taste.
But again, community and team can decide if they want it or not.

 

[modmod]

Many things you suggest are not even technically possible:

Sorry for that.
I do not know what possible in python/ not avare many of the engine limitations.

So those were just ideas what possible risks could be in triangle trade.