Adding a Spark to the Malakim

[Jules.lt]

As for the desert shrine xp, I think it's fun, practical and flavorful that the Malakim may want to scorch around one city to give spiritual space to the enlightened

Edit: Great Prophet points would be fitting too

 

[Schmoe]

Regarding the 4xp for shared religion, how about shared religion + open borders? Shared religion by itself doesn't seem like something that would give extra knowledge though open borders with the crusading Malakim might.

I really like the idea of a bonus for being friendly with the Malakim, especially if the AI can be taught to recognize it. And I agree with fuzzy_bunnies that I think shared religion + open borders is better than shared religion alone. You can very easily adopt a religion and go to war with the civ holding that religion. In fact, shared religion alone might encourage human players to adopt the Malakim religion and then war with them until they've captured the holy city, keeping the Malakim as a vassal or a pathetic weakling tucked away in the corner of the world, just to be the human player's disciple XP [female dog]

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I like the idea of disciples not getting sacrificed when they spread religion. same thing could be done with priests and temples.

 

[Kael]

I like the idea of disciples not getting sacrificed when they spread religion. same thing could be done with priests and temples.

As others have mentioned we already use a similiar mechanic to let disciples spread for free with the Order.

I dont liek the priests creating temples for free because all that means is that players never build temples anymore, instead they have to micro manage and run their priests to every city. Its better and more ai friendly to just place free temples in all the cities or give a discount in temple build rates (which is what the spiritual trait already does).

Free temples, like free anything, just means that the players resources go into other things. So that by giving free temples you produce more military units or whatever.

 

[Blackmantle]

Im all for makeing the Malakin a Trader-Civ and strong ally in one way or another.

If Kael doesn't want to go for the super-city approach with them though adding food per Trade route whould be a bad Idea. (sadly. I whould really like a 1/1/1 flat bonus but thats against what Kael outlined for them having no huge cities which it whould definately lead to.)
But what about 0/1/2 per Trade route with cities that have their state religion (or cities of civs running their state-religion) for them and 0/1/1 for other cities / civs trading (+sharing their religion?) with them? (As seen in Final Frontier, trade-route bonuses really work out very well gameplaywise. And the AI should be able to grasp them fine as well.)

Making the bonus more complicated might make the whole thing more hard to grasp but might natrually be very interesting as well.

And i honestly see no real reason (neither in nor out of game ) why a bonus shouldn't extend to their own cities (no stack of 0/2/3 for own cities naturally. ). Thats what a nomadic trader society is all about. (in regards to the trader-part at least. )
Unless of course the bonus isn't flat and special perks (free specialists and the likes) are concerned.

Foreign Trade Routes allready give a whopping +150% bonus for extended peace (which is another disincentive to go to war with an religious "ally") and another possible +100% for overseas. So trade with others is more beneficial anyways. Thats enough to not keep your borders closed. Also foreign trade-routes are prioritised because of it anyways by the game. (if im not mistaken the routes are assigned in a way they give the most yields for your civ. At least they definately change, don't know the exact mechanics of the changes though.)
Plus the benefits of a council usually (which in case of the overcouncil the Malakim are more likely to dominate than many other civs anyways. ). Also Overcouncil offers more with regards to trade-routes if im not mistaken so the synergy whould be allright there.


And with Varn (AI) in the lead there is no need to fear that he goes hugging with everyone.
Decius is another matter but his traits are less on economy anyways (and quite strong in their own right) so it whould help him compensate a bit and try a more "friendly" + "loyal" approach.


As for the XP-thing: Not an all to bad idea. And whould add up nicely to other things.
But! it whould make high-level Malakim-AI very! scary.
On Immortal / Deity Varn already goes explode + berserk in quite some games (presumably thanks to the way he conducts diplomacy with "a big stick" rather often while still beeing a tech trader and staunch ally to some in the game.) (On Deity i had games were he did beat Svarts (turn 60! or so) to FoL (and rather often does dwarves to RoK) and in one game he founded 6! religions.)
Together with Command-posts from organized (either from adaptive or decius) its allready 6 XP (+ commando for Decius after the most recent Change). Add to that the Free XP on higher difficulties and he can pack quite a punch. (not that this is automatically a bad thing. It just may turn out as: too much. But thats something to be seen / tested by us anyways after you implement. )
Whould it also effect the units from the worldspell then? (flavorwise presumably ought to. But don't know if it whould be to powerful. But that answer might have to wait until a change is allready planned...


On another note regarding Varns traits: Has anyone from the team considered to trade his fixed creative trait for financial or spiritual? I don't know why he is creative + adaptive (financial)?
Lorewise spiritual + adaptive (financial) might make much more sense, whouldn't it? (financial + adaptive [spiritual] might be another choice but sounds less fitting if perhaps stronger?)
I for the life of me can't understand why he is creative (neither by the patron, nor the leader, nor the civ. Only balance might have been the reson but i hardly see a danger there).
And it whould give another serious boost to their deciple-units. (except for decius. But he has decent Traits [imo] in his own right as mentioned allready.)
Also Spiritiual is not an all-to-common trait so there seems to be no big danger of overlap (unless i disremember...).


Also: Is it intended that the first pick for adaptive now comes later into the game (~ Turn 95, not around Turn 5 like it did some versions before) or did that slip through in one of the more recent versions? The frequency of a hundred truns looks allright in my book but beeing forced to one trait is not allways a nice thing (this is by far a bigger concern for the other adaptive leaders though. Since financial is a rather decent trait in its own right.)

 

[Verdian]

What if the Malakim got +4 xp for their disciple units. And anyone who shared their state religion got +4 xp for their disciple units?

That would go a long way toward what Verdian was getting at in making relationships with the Malakim more important (in particular going with their religion or getting them to go with yours) and enforceing their role as our best priests.

I do not think that just that would be enough to encourage people to want to ally with the Malakim. A religion-heavy civ, maybe, but all of the others would hardly see that as a benefit worth going out of their way for. Unless of course you mean the Malakim disciple units get +4exp per civilization that shares their religion. That would encourage the Malakim to go out of their way to make friends with EVERYONE.

There may still need to be more of a benefit to other civilizations to make them want to ally with the Malakim, though. Perhaps this:

With open borders, Malakim and the other civilization get + or . The Malakim would get this per open border.

With open borders AND same religion, the Malakim and other civilization would get +4exp for disciple units. The Malakim would get this per civilization.

This encourages the Malakim to amiable to others, while giving a lesser benefit to other civs to encourage them to play along.

 

[Keeper_GFA]

Isn't +4xp per civilization way too much?

 

[Verdian]

Possibly. It could be changed to 2 or 3. Keeping friends with people and having the same religion can be tricky. In an average game with 8 computers, I usually only have 2 or 3 people share my religion. That's an extra 12 exp right there, which is not an overwhelming amount. I suppose in games where you are fighting 15+ AIs, it could get to be a little much.

 

[xienwolf]

Sidar going with the Altar strategy to crank out Priests as Shades would sure love to open borders with the Malakim

 

[fuzzy_bunnies]

Sigh. If it looks too good to be true, it probably isn't. Just like how people started freaking out thinking Kael said +1trade/desert meant +1 trade route, when he says +4 xp for anyone sharing the Malakim's religion, he means just that... +4 xp.

If you have the same religion as the Malakim and open borders, all your priests get +4 xp total. Not +4 xp for each civ that has the same religion per unit.

 

[Vehem]

This reminds me of a thought I had some time ago, not really Malakim specific, but I think any trade route you have with a civ that you share a religion with should get a hefty (+50% or +100%) bonus.
Rationale being that the ai gets a relationship bonus with the player when they share a religion, but the player has no incentive not to backstab ai's with the same religion, so that just kind of sets the ai up.
But in the end it's probably too small a bonus to effect decision making anyway.

It would actually be a fairly significant boost - especially in the first half of the game. I quite like the idea as it also promotes proselytizing for your religion more than you would currently (having an overseas neighbour with a shared religion and extended peace could make for some tasty trade routes, even before harbors or similar structures were considered).

 

[Ksi]

Kael this sounds good. I have a slight addition to this. The Malakim seem to focus on diplomatic power (overcouncil, religious +4xp, and possibly open boarders.) However how can we continue to develop this and make their priests stronger? My suggestion is to bring back an old unit, but significantly weaker.

I believe it was called the "Patriarch" or something to this measure. He was basically a pope, and upgraded high priest limited to one who had a couple advantages over the high priest and at the cost of a significant chunk of experience could declare "holy war" on civilizations which would mean those sharing the religion would declare on said civilization. He could be toned down or made easy to assassinate (2 strength or something.) It could potentially drag people into the deserts to fight the Malakim as well, which would be great flavor.

This would certainly grant the Malakim the priest bonus they are looking for. If the +4 xp is kept too this allows the Malakim to pursue dominance in both the religion and the overcouncil.

Although weak early game, it seems late game this would give them the best chance in uniting the world against the White Hand and the God of Winter before all is lost. I think it's quite poetic, the followers of Lugus being the last ray of light.

I dont like the desert shine grants +1 xp per desert because its useless if the malakim dont happen to be in a desert area. I hate to have players starting over again and again trying to get a start position in a desert area.

What if the Malakim got +4 xp for their disciple units. And anyone who shared their state religion got +4 xp for their disciple units?

That would go a long way toward what Verdian was getting at in making relationships with the Malakim more important (in particular going with their religion or getting them to go with yours) and enforceing their role as our best priests.

I dont want to force friendliness with them (the bonus would last even if you were are war with them) but a shared state religion does mean that they are more likely to be good neighbors to them (especially since they value religion so much) and if they leave the game the bonus is gone entirely. Making players think about jumping in and saving them.

Thoughts?

 

[Mailbox]

I love these ideas for peaceful Malakim boosts. Perhaps the Empyrean as a whole could receive more peaceful powers as well?

 

[Schmoe]

Kael this sounds good. I have a slight addition to this. The Malakim seem to focus on diplomatic power (overcouncil, religious +4xp, and possibly open boarders.) However how can we continue to develop this and make their priests stronger? My suggestion is to bring back an old unit, but significantly weaker.

I believe it was called the "Patriarch" or something to this measure. He was basically a pope, and upgraded high priest limited to one who had a couple advantages over the high priest and at the cost of a significant chunk of experience could declare "holy war" on civilizations which would mean those sharing the religion would declare on said civilization. He could be toned down or made easy to assassinate (2 strength or something.) It could potentially drag people into the deserts to fight the Malakim as well, which would be great flavor.
<snip>

I really like that idea. I've been missing the Patriarch from earlier times. Limiting the Patriarch to the Malakim, and then only if they control the holy city, would be a nice touch that gives them an ace in the hole for when things turn sour.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

nice idea about the Patriarch, I think it portrays the religious fanaticism of the Malakim really well. giving it some bonus if you have a holy city would be cool

 

[Ksi]

Does it seem too powerful though?

 

[BugReportage]

Excellent this gives me more reason to use them to summon the infernals, these bonuses to hammers and commerce are somewhat useful when I first start out and still need manes.
I have a feeling that's not what you guys have in mind.

I do have one thing that bothers me with Malakim.
Hammers and settlers. Malakim's first city is amazing... the trick is getting a second city... Sometimes the build time due to lack of hammers for a settler is around 50-70 turns... That's an astounding disadvantage. If I work hard I can usually get that down to about 35 but that's still... Meh. Mining is often a must to get enough hammers, (unless you began in an unflavoury position WITH PLAINS+DESERT which is one of the most overpowered starts in the game. Hammers from forests+food from flood plains+commerce from flood plains). Having to research mining is annoying, I usually skip it and simply ditch Malakim for the Infernals and then if I am lucky enough to spawn near them, kill them and get my holy city back.

Anyways the point: No Hammers + Building Settler = Die of old age.

*Comment: this open borders hammer thing seems interesting and very related to the settler problem! ^^

 

[nealhunt]

I played several games with Malakim over the weekend. Lots of starts to get a feel and about 3 to midgame (by which time I pretty much know whether I've won).

Desert Commerce - This can be nice. A river with some floodplains and choosing Financial trait means that unimproved tiles are making 3 food/3 commerce. However, there is still no incentive not to terraform ASAP. 1 commerce bonus, even multiplied by a Financial add-on is just not worth it compared to 1 food/1 hammer from Plains.

Eberon maps - I agree with others that have posted that the Malakim start is pure luck. If you get a river with floodplains it can be a strong start. If not, you're stuffed. I think this relates directly to the limited advantages of the desert.

 

[cabbagemeister]

My issue with my Malakim experience is the seeming pointlessness of the Lightbringer unit. Am I missing something, or is it just an over-expensive scout (more than 2x the hammers of a normal scout!) with a different upgrade path? Why would I waste hammers on it?

Reading xienwolf's manual, he suggests that lightbringers are good to get out early, level up, and then upgrade to priests. Well, given 1) the typical life expectancy of a normal scout (when I go recon-line, I usually manage to get 1 out of 5 scouts to level 4) and 2) the mechanics the Malakim have for popping promoted priests off the assembly line (like desert shrine), the Lightbringer seems like the very least hammer-efficient way to get promoted priests.

My suggestion: give Lightbringers the Channeling I promotion. They wouldn't be able to cast any spells (there are no tier I Divine spells, right?), but they would be able to gain xp like an adept. Varn's new Spiritual trait would obviously synergize nicely with this (right now Spiritual doesn't help Lightbringers at all), and you'd have lvl5 Lightbringers in no time.

If Lightbringers could gain xp without fighting, I would definitely build a whole bunch of them as early as possible and park them in my cities until they got awesome. Also, if this mechanic were in place, I'd shoot down the Priest line ASAP, because with a little upgrade gold I'd be fielding lvl6 ex-Lightbringer priests. Isn't that the goal--to encourage the Malakim player to go down the Priest line?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

shouldn't Lightbringers get the "better results from tribal villages" ability? I mean they are supposed to be Light Bringers, right? and maybe they could get the "adventurer" ability too ( the one that means better results from exploring lairs ) , for exatly the same reason, bringing light to dark places. right now they seem underpowered for their huge price ( early game ) . oh , and since the Malakim are traders, they should have a huge incentive to adopt Foreign Trade imho