Adding Canada to the civ world

[Janos]

Britain a rotting old thing of the past? That's why Bush will consult Blair over international issues, why they went to war together, and why they continue to have excellent relations together then, right? Britain is one of the most multi-cultural nations in the world, and has an enormous history.

If we're talking in terms of army, then Britain's may be relatively small, but it is widely considered the best trained. In terms of international politics, Britain has so far not succumbed to the influence of the rest of Europe over the Euro, and pretty much goes about its own business.

Britain may not have an empire anymore, but we certainly still have power. We may be a small nation, but damn it, we're a proud and important one too. We're an island race, and we love it. I respect America, and have a lot of American friends... but to say what Nyvin said about Britain just reeks of arrogance and ignorance.

Defeated? Never...

 

[frekk]

Insignificant ? One of the wealthiest , most powerful and influential countries in the world.

I don't know about that. Britain's economic performance has been shabby at best since the late 80s, to the point that the one-time leading economic power in Europe and before that the world is now a mid-ranking partner in the EU, playing a distant third to France and Germany. The UK is just one place ahead of Italy in GDP ranking, falling behind China, Japan, Germany, and France. For all the media trumpeting, Britain is still not showing the least sign of ever recovering its former status and is trumpeted as doing well simply because it is managing to hold its ground - for the moment!

I would not say insignifigant either, but Britain's role in the world is more or less restricted to playing the EU's bitter, odd man out and serving as a very large airbase and recruiting office for the US (as Orwell predicted it has indeed become "Airstrip One"). In terms of foreign policy, Britain has shown less independance than Canada in the last few decades. Not quite insignifigant but definately Britain is headed in that direction.

 

[mastertyguy]

Those who said that Canada is a continuation of England: Hello!!!! just South of us, we have actually the #1 country of the time. IMHO, I think Europe altogether is more powerful, but that is me. And Europe is not a country, so... This works a little bit like in civ3: great Britain is on the other side of the ocean, and from Montreal to the US, there are a few kilometers (this is one of the rare differences: you say miles, we said kilometers). We are nearer to the US than the UK on most points. There is even, in Quebec the "Partie 51". It's objective is to secess from Canada and to become an American state!!! Never heard the same thing for UK.

 

[searcheagle]

There is even, in Quebec the "Partie 51". It's objective is to secess from Canada and to become an American state!!! Never heard the same thing for UK.

Really? Wow! Runs to Google to search for Partie 51. I have heard that parts of Saskatchewan would be up for joining the US, but I would have never guess in Quebec.

As for your remark about the UK. A friend of mine is a UK citizen, although working on his citizenship, said he and other members of his family are for the UK joining the US. That would make things interesting in the History books. (For the record, most of the family is either US Citizens now or working on it.)

 

[searcheagle]

@searcheagle

Erm sorry i was refering to England. The person i was quoting beforehand was refearing to Britain.

They said.



My response was with respect to England.

Nice link anyway but numbers is not everything, its is indeed an important factor but quality is another. I will be clear here with what i am stating Canada in my opinion is not currently a major power.

That makes a WHOLE lot more sense now. Thanks for correcting it.

 

[mastertyguy]

Partie 51 is very small, you may not find a web site on google. There is probably less poeple voting for them than for marxist-leninists.

 

[Atrebates]

A friend of mine is a UK citizen, although working on his citizenship, said he and other members of his family are for the UK joining the US. That would make things interesting in the History books. (For the record, most of the family is either US Citizens now or working on it.)

He's very much in the minority, I've never heard anyone express that view. I don't think anyone who is 'British' in the sense of classing themselves as being ethnically British would agree (hmm... I can feel the thin ice under my feet at this point) Although I don't think it was your point to say Britain was pining to be the next state.

 

[searcheagle]

http://www.answers.com/topic/51st-state

Use of "51st State" in Canada
Arguments for Canada joining the U.S. have rather more geographic and economic logic. Many Americans appear to be positive towards the idea and a surprising number of Canadians appear to be in favor as well. Polls conducted by The Canadian Press in 2001 and 2002 found that 38 per cent of American respondents said they would be "in favour of Canada being annexed to the United States", while 49 per cent disagreed. 19.9 per cent of Canadian respondents agreed with the proposition of annexation, but 76.5 per cent rejected the idea. [1] (http://www.stevequayle.com/News.alert/Canada_Mexico/021014.annexing.Canada.html)

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery...1a&linktext=Annexationist movements of Canada

 

[frekk]

He's very much in the minority, I've never heard anyone express that view. I don't think anyone who is 'British' in the sense of classing themselves as being ethnically British would agree

True, but there is an element within Britain, Canada, Australia, the US etc who do seek to elevate the ties within the Anglosphere and perhaps even create a concrete political recognition of the group as a more formal global bloc.

 

[Atrebates]

hmm... actually I like that idea, us vs the world

 

[Himalia]

I think its a pretty sound concept in principle. The countries mentioned to have alot in common. But its also true that is not a very popular idea as such. But probably more popular than moving from Sterling to the Euro. I pray that never happens.

 

[mokeysonice]

really? Annexation of Quebec without a war? lol, usually i do hear the idea of anexation of Canada by the US, execpt its usually said after "I think the US should invade canada"

lol sorry, infact in the 1998 (or so) southpark movie thats what the US did, lol "operation behind the darkies" lol sorry

England as i see it has not had much political influence since the US threw a fit when there was a joint Anglo-French attack on the Suez canal while the Israelis attacked Sinai, america got angry- and lots of englands influence went away. this is a bad analogy, but i think of the UK more as the US in like 1823ish when England (us now) offered for a joint Monroe type treaty. if that makes any sense at all

 

[frekk]

But probably more popular than moving from Sterling to the Euro. I pray that never happens.

Soros really screwed you guys up. Moving to the Euro would not be the same this time around; England really needs to abandon outdated sentiments and start dealing with reality. If you wanted to keep the pound, you shouldn't have abandoned the Commonwealth customs partnership in favour of the EU. "In for a penny, in for a pound"!!

The sad thing is that the Commonwealth customs partnership would make *great* sense today, and it was completely foreseeable that globalization and national specialization would occur at the time Britain dropped the ball and signed up for the Lome Convention, drooling, thinking they were about to head up the next world superpower or something and not realizing what they abandoned and how the global markets would change and make such a scattered network a very, very good thing. An exclusive free trade network and guaranteed markets distributed between the UK, Canada/Aus/NZ, India, SA, a great mix of numerous agricultural and resource nations, industrial nations, labour nations and high tech/service/financial nations. A market of 1.8 billion, 30% of the world's population. Cheap labour here, educated workforce there, natural resources here, industrial capacity there, big consumer markets here, tiger economy there .... Whoops!

Not that I really care, it works out for Canada either way .... but we are now in the position of courting China to reduce our dependance on partnership with the US, which sorta blows. AND, it forced us to sign CUSFTA and later NAFTA which have been, ah, mixed blessings at best. We've certainly slid a few notches down in the world since putting the ink to those.

 

[frekk]

really? Annexation of Quebec without a war? lol, usually i do hear the idea of anexation of Canada by the US, execpt its usually said after "I think the US should invade canada"

lol sorry, infact in the 1998 (or so) southpark movie thats what the US did, lol "operation behind the darkies" lol sorry

Well ... the US likely could enjoy much greater influence in Quebec if not for the strange American attitude about all things French. At one time the US was conducting a policy of courting Quebec, and the opinions of Partie 51 were not so radical as they are now ... but the American public sort of threw a monkeywrench in that. Which is probably a good thing for you. You haven't had a national crisis until you've had to deal with Quebec language politicians. In fact, if you ever threatened to invade us (which is about as politically doable as re-instituting slavery or establishing a Divine Monarchy in Washington) all we'd do is give you Quebec and watch you crumble.

England as i see it has not had much political influence since the US threw a fit when there was a joint Anglo-French attack on the Suez canal while the Israelis attacked Sinai, america got angry- and lots of englands influence went away. this is a bad analogy

Not at all a bad analogy, it is spot-on, the Suez Crisis is very broadly regarded as the end of British global influence and the beginning of American influence in the world. It was a masterpiece of diplomacy and very uncharacteristic of American behaviour since then in a number of ways. Of course, that's because it was a Canadian plan, dreamt up by the Pearson administration. America behaved in a very Canadian fashion and I would expect if it happened all over again today, the US would be in the role of Britain, lacking the political will to put the brakes on Israel and uninterested in diplomatic finesse with Egypt. You really should listen to us more often.

but i think of the UK more as the US in like 1823ish

Well, England was a sole superpower right up to the mid-1930s or so. America didn't become a global power of any kind until after WW2.

 

[mastertyguy]

They became pretty rich after WW1, altough.

 

[Brian Mc]

Canada should not be in a release of Civ 4. Neither should the United States. Frankly, neither should Great Britain. It is silly in the extreme to play any of these countries from the beginning of time. I'd be in favour of a "New World" expansion with the US, Canada and Australia, but to have any of them in from the start is craziness.

How anyone can argue that a Native American tribe(s) should be included, and then turn around and say Canada should not be included because they have never had any influence needs their head checked.

Here's a short list of Canadian inventions
http://canada4life.ca/invent.php
Including, yes, the lightbulb. No influence indeed.

Canada has paid dearly for its place in the world. If you doubt it, travel Flanders, Northern France and Holland. While the United States waltzed into both World Wars when it suited them, Canada sent its sons and daughters to die when they were needed. Canada was born at Vimy, and those who deny the fact that Canada was ever "born" should stand at the memorial there and scream it at the top of their lungs.

No, if you measure a civilization by the size of its military, Canada is not powerful. But, if you measure a civilization by the size of its military, you're an idiot. Welcome to the 21st Century, the only criteria for measuring the success of a nation is the happiness of its population and its wealth. Canada has the most efficient economy in the world and most readily available natural wealth aswell.

To state that Canada has no culture simply demonstates ignorance in the extreme. Experience another country before you make completely outlandish statements like that. I see the usual garbage like "the only characteristics of Canadians is that they aren't Americans". Learn some history and meet some actual people with real lives befure you quote newspaper editorials and ivory tower professors. I have a culture, I have a language, I have music, I have values and I don't need to spend billions on a military to make myself feel better about it. Canadians are truely free, something Americans may not be accustomed to, but don't hate us for it.

A few notes:
Ottawa was chosen specifically because it was not Quebec, Montreal, Kingston or York.
There is actually a very large degree of seperatist feeling in Alaska, so don't feel so high and mighty.

 

[searcheagle]

Wow, look at his reaction just cause he didn't like what I said. He lowers himself to name calling.
Fortunately, I dont have time for that.

Welcome to the 21st Century, the only criteria for measuring the success of a nation is the happiness of its population and its wealth.

So,
(The top 5 most happy civs)
1. Puerto Rico

2. Mexico

3. Denmark

4. Ireland

5. Iceland
should be a civ in Civ 4 then?
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002223080_happy29.html

 

[mastertyguy]

UK out!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Do you see what you are saying!?!?!?!?!?! England was the Empire where the sun never set (or something like that ) England is in the game, no question. America too, mainly because it is public #1 for the game.
@ Brian Mac: This is a totally off-topic question, there is no more off-topic question, but I saw you were from Ottawa, and I just wanted to know if you were a senators fan?

 

[Himalia]

Well thats his opinion im just curioues to see who he what 18 civs he would put in ?

Considering he is saying that its daft to play any civ from the begining of time thats basically leaves... ermmm are well a handful at most certainly couldnt make 18 civs with requiremenst like that so its goodbye Romans for starters as there are plenty that are older than them. Also keep in mind that Britain, the English or whatever you would like to call them have been around for along time. Hey anyone heard of the Britons ? A little before 500AD i think been around for a fair old time i think.

Actually thinking about i could make 18 civs with those requirements fairly easily but it would be an odd game, intresting tho.

 

[frekk]

Canada should not be in a release of Civ 4. Neither should the United States. Frankly, neither should Great Britain. It is silly in the extreme to play any of these countries from the beginning of time. I'd be in favour of a "New World" expansion with the US, Canada and Australia, but to have any of them in from the start is craziness.

Well, what do you mean "beginning of time"? It seems sort of arbitrary. Rome wasn't around in the "beginning of time", nor the Greeks nor Russians nor Vikings nor Persians. At the beginning of civilization there were just two - one in China and one on the banks of the Euphrates. Egypt was not a civilization at the very dawn of civilization, even, just some fishers and hunters living in the delta at the time of the first Mesopotamian towns and cities. What's the cutoff date here? 4000 BC? 1000 BC? 100 AD? 800 AD? It's just too arbitrary to say that it's "crazy" to have any of them in from the start ... realistically, there are only a very few of them that qualify to be in from the start, none of whom (except, perhaps, China, but the earliest "Chinese" and the modern Chinese are not really the same civilization) have survived in any meaningful form to the present day.

To state that Canada has no culture simply demonstates ignorance in the extreme. Experience another country before you make completely outlandish statements like that. I see the usual garbage like "the only characteristics of Canadians is that they aren't Americans". Learn some history and meet some actual people with real lives befure you quote newspaper editorials and ivory tower professors. I have a culture, I have a language, I have music, I have values and I don't need to spend billions on a military to make myself feel better about it. Canadians are truely free, something Americans may not be accustomed to, but don't hate us for it.

Amen to that.

Although I will say that the Canadians who say we have no culture distinct from the Americans are usually Albertans or evil Torontonians, in which case they are speaking for themselves and quite correct. America influences Canadian culture .... but much more amazingly, considering our population, Canada influences American culture to a great degree. American politicians are in no ways uncertain or unaware about this, whatever they may claim; just look at the hysterical American response whenever marijuana reform is discussed in Canada, and one can immediatly appreciate the depth to which American decision-makers are keenly aware of our cultural influence in the US. It always comforts me to know that every day, Canada earns good money exporting a few acres worth of pulp and paper that will ultimately be used by American newspapers to print reams of stories assuring themselves of our non-influence.