Adding Canada to the civ world

[mastertyguy]

Quebec would have been good. Historically, it has been a key city, and it was one of the biggest cites in canada at the time. And it is not near the US that much. Anyway, it is not worse than the USA, they BUILT a capital. This was too civ-like, to me.

 

[Icmancin]

The Canadians should NOT be included as a Civ. I say this as a Canadian myself.
The Canadians have contributed to society much: Hockey, Molsen Canadian, UN Peacekeepers but it has not been a massive contribution. Canada is not a nation nor civilization but a country.
Nations are made of their own people but the Canadians are British and French and many other cultures. Canada is multi-cultural but when you think of say france you think of the French people. Not the citizens but their race. Canada has no main race such as Russia or Italy. Russians and Italians are their own cultures, Canada is a mix of everything.
No I am not an anti-Canadian being one myself. Canada is my second favourite country. I draw my favourite from my paternal roots: Italy. I don't want to start a flame war but canada should defenitly not be included.... Nor should the Americans even though they influence the world. They are technically not a civilization.

 

[frekk]

I can just imagine the reaction of mid-1800s Quebecois to the English building their main capitol in Montreal or Quebec:

 

[frekk]

The Canadians should NOT be included as a Civ. I say this as a Canadian myself.
The Canadians have contributed to society much: Hockey, Molsen Canadian, UN Peacekeepers but it has not been a massive contribution. Canada is not a nation nor civilization but a country.
Nations are made of their own people but the Canadians are British and French and many other cultures. Canada is multi-cultural but when you think of say france you think of the French people. Not the citizens but their race. Canada has no main race such as Russia or Italy. Russians and Italians are their own cultures, Canada is a mix of everything.
No I am not an anti-Canadian being one myself. Canada is my second favourite country. I draw my favourite from my paternal roots: Italy. I don't want to start a flame war but canada should defenitly not be included.... Nor should the Americans even though they influence the world. They are technically not a civilization.

A civilization is not a racial grouping. Many civilizations aren't racially homogenous ... eg Rome, Sumeria, Ptolemaic Egypt, Russia, China, Britain after the Danes and the Normans and particularly after incorporation of Scotland, Wales and Ireland, etc etc etc. America fits the bill here, as much as Rome or the others do anyway.

Not arguing for Canada's inclusion, just reminding you that there have been several great "multi-cultural" civilizations comprised of many races.

 

[Corvex]

Believe it or not, I actually agree that Quebec should have been the capital for a number of reasons:
1) Quebec always had been the capital prior to the 1850s
2) Quebec is far from any border and fairly easy to defend (not that that's ever been an issue in history post-confederation, mind you, but it easily could have been one at the time)
3) Quebec was already fairly large
4) Sovereignty wouldn't have been an issue. Unless Ontario wanted to separate.

But then, I suppose that would be kind of like the Russians building their capital at Kiev.

BTW: fully one third of Canadians now list their ethnicity as being simply 'Canadian.' That may not mean much, but then again, neither does ethnicity in general (at least not when it is used to refer to the 'races' of Europe)

EDIT: And correct me if I'm wrong Frekk, but I was under the impression that the Supreme Court had ruled that provinces could not legally secede.

 

[mastertyguy]

Where is the comparison with Kiev? It was the biggest Slav city at a point. But Ottawa was a smallish town. And Washington was purely nothing.

 

[Corvex]

The point is that Kiev was the original capital of Russia, but then they moved it to Moscow, and now Kiev is in an entirely different country.

 

[Lockesdonkey]

Where is the comparison with Kiev? It was the biggest Slav city at a point. But Ottawa was a smallish town. And Washington was purely nothing.

True. But building a capital city with the intention of having the government there is actually a good idea, if you don't get too carried away with it. Washington was quite the success story until recently. And the traffic still flows (fairly) smoothly, and it is one of the most interesting and beautiful cities in the world; and its power cannot be matched even by Rome at its height.

 

[Che Guava]

...
Canada as a nation is a nation of followers...they don't start (or finish) wars...
DO SOMETHING, CANADA!

A nation of followers? I would have thought that opting out of the 'coalition of the willing' would have been enough to show that we make our own decisions, in spite of the flak we get from some of our more right-leaning neighbours to the south!

We don't start or finish wars? We were there from beginning to end in both WWI and II, while I beleive the US of A decided to join little fashionably late...Seriously, though, I think america's great and we couldn't ask for a better neighbour. Let all go out for a beer, eh? One more note, though: Canada ain't as new as many would beleive: my family history goes back to the mid 1600's here! If you want to go by confederation date, then technically we're older than germany...!

 

[Nyvin]

If anything Canada should be the civ that Britain morphs into in the modern age. Afterall, it would make sense, Britain's pretty much over and done with in terms of world power, a old rotting thing of the past, quite insignifficant nowadays. Canada is new and pretty much just a continuation of Brittish culture.

 

[Himalia]

Insignificant ? One of the wealthiest , most powerful and influential countries in the world. You just about discount the entire planet with a statement like that. Canada is Canada and England is England the may have a history that overplps but they should be treated as seperate. If thats not the case then prehaps something equally daft should be applied to America.

Your statement there is a pretty offensive one i must say and seems to be based on ? well im not sure really certainly not history or reality. Hate prehaps ? i hope thats not the case.

Of course thats not the case but some may think that.

 

[frekk]

And correct me if I'm wrong Frekk, but I was under the impression that the Supreme Court had ruled that provinces could not legally secede.

No, they ruled that provinces could not secede without there being a "clear" will to do so (clear and clarity were repeated liberally throughout the ruling) and that provincial governments could not unilaterally secede ... but they never ruled that provinces could not secede, in fact, they implicitily recognized a right of secession where there was a clear will to do so and defined the requirements for secession - which were later encapsulated in the Clarity Act.

 

[Ivan the Kulak]

In practice, states or provinces are rarely allowed to secede, as this weakens the mother nation. There were a bunch of people down in the warmer parts of the USA back about 150 years ago who thought they could just tell the Yankees to shove it and start their own country, and look what happened to them...

 

[frekk]

In practice, states or provinces are rarely allowed to secede, as this weakens the mother nation. There were a bunch of people down in the warmer parts of the USA back about 150 years ago who thought they could just tell the Yankees to shove it and start their own country, and look what happened to them...

The issue of Quebec secession is an entirely different kettle of fish, and it would be silly to draw conclusions about the future of Quebec with analogies to the Southern Confederacy. The background, history, economics, politics and issues are as different as night and day.

So far Quebec has not ever rallied a clear majority in support of secession, in fact they have not been able to rally even a simple minority in favour of it - but if Quebec should hold a referendum and get 80% voting "Yes", it might take a while to complete negotiations and arrangements but Quebec would be allowed to separate. Canada's concern is threefold; keeping Quebec in Confederation; preventing separatists from depriving a signifigant minority of Quebeckers from membership in Canada (eg Quebec will not be allowed to separate with only 51% in favour); and preventing a crisis in Quebec (eg Canada does not wish a more serious repeat of the FLQ crisis and will not forcibly retain a Quebec with an overwhelming majority in favour of separation, should that ever happen).

 

[searcheagle]

Insignificant ?

Yes. Let's do a test for an average member of the world. Name the countries with the most impact on world affairs since the begining of time you would get answers like: Egypt, Rome, Greece, China, India, Babylon, Britian, France, Germany, Russia, Mongols, Americans, Arabs, Israel/Judeau, and numerous others. I just named 14 civs, none of which will be very controversial which all had more impact then

Also, when a country does something, who's opinions are considered ? Mainly the US, China, EU, and the USSR.

One of the wealthiest , most powerful and influential countries in the world.

Where do you get the Canada is "powerful?"
Canada ranks 58th in the number of military personnel at about 60,000 personnell. The top 4 counties all have over a million China, Russia, US, India.

Canada ranks as the 25th largest possessor of Air Force Personnel. They have 14,000 vs 370,000 for the US.

Canada Ranks as 28th for the largest possesor of Naval personnel at 9,000. The largest, the US has 380,000.

Canada ranks 45th as the number of weapon holdings. They have 1.8 million vs 38.5 million.

You just about discount the entire planet with a statement like that. Canada is Canada and England is England the may have a history that overplps but they should be treated as seperate. If thats not the case then prehaps something equally daft should be applied to America.

The difference is obvious. Since 1900, the US has been a regional power. Since WWII, the US has been a worldwide superpower. Canada has never been neither.

Economically and culturally, the has lead the world since the WWII. American videos, music, food, and products can be found around the world. And unlike in China, we are producing it cause we like it, not becuase another country sees us as cheap labor.

The US has had seperate culture from Britain since before the revolutionary war. Canada has yet to shed much of Britain's culture.

The US has had its own seperate government for over 225 years. Canada has yet to come anywhere close. Didn't they get full indepence in the 1960s?

Your statement there is a pretty offensive one i must say and seems to be based on ? well im not sure really certainly not history or reality. Hate prehaps ? i hope thats not the case.

I think your statements lack a lot of objectivity.
Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/mil_nav_per&int=-1

 

[jkp1187]

Didn't they get full indepence in the 1960s?

Nope. 1982.

 

[Himalia]

@searcheagle

Erm sorry i was refering to England. The person i was quoting beforehand was refearing to Britain.

They said.

Britain's pretty much over and done with in terms of world power, a old rotting thing of the past, quite insignifficant nowadays.

My response was with respect to England.

Nice link anyway but numbers is not everything, its is indeed an important factor but quality is another. I will be clear here with what i am stating Canada in my opinion is not currently a major power.

 

[jkp1187]

Nice link anyway but numbers is not everything, its is indeed an imporatnt factor but quality is another. I will be clear here i what i am stating Canada in my opinion is not currently a major power.

And they will never be, until they quit defining themselves in terms of a negative. If you ask a Canadian what it means to be "Canadian", nine times out of ten you get the phrase "not American" or "unlike America" in there.

 

[Himalia]

I have heard that one a few times. To quote Homer Simpson AMERICA JUNIOR. Only joking i have no problem with Canada or America. I think alot of that comes from ignorance of others just asuming both places must be pretty much the same which of course is not the case.

 

[frekk]

Nope. 1982.

Nope. 1931.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Westminster

The Constitution Act of 1982 was more or less a formality and one which simply could no longer be ignored, though it was definately in the Canadian interest to ignore it. The reason for this was that the Statute of Westminster had granted all practical legislative and executive powers to the Canadian Parliament except constitutional amendments, and the advantage of this was that the federal government could pass the buck when the separtists came knocking; it simply had no legal power to allow secession.

Once the Constitution Act was passed and the amendment of the constitution became something that regionalists in the West and Quebec could feasibly set their sights on, the government was forced to appease the provinces (during the Trudea era of regional favouritism and federal mega-projects in Quebec, kowtowing to the West over energy policy and passing harsh legislation against rail companies governing their rates to appease wheat farmers etc etc) and is currently under absolute siege by them for all sorts of concessions. Being a separatist in today's Canada pays and pays big, because it is real leverage .... before 1982, it was just alot of hot air because there was no process in Canada to amend the constitution or change Confederation.