Advent 2014

[Traitorfish]

Maybe not even then. You could easily read Santa's generosity as chiefly largess rather than pious charity. There's a codified reciprocity built into the Santa tradition which contrasts quite sharply with the spontaneous universalism of Christian charity, particularly in the inequality of the reciprocity between child and Santa, the child rendering obedience rather than goods. Christian generosity is a way in which individuals strive to reflect God's infinite bounty, but Santa's generosity seems to be about cementing a certain kind of chiefly status.

 

[Farm Boy]

I figured he was more like a Christian wrenchman. Can't get the kiddos to be nice out of pureness of spirit? Here, do some dirty work and bribe the little buggers. Sure it's not as pure as God's love as seen through the light of the Star of Bethlehem, but it's not cold and distant like it either. Christianity with a tad of graft and muscle.

 

[Borachio]

I think you overstate the case here. Let's not forget that Santa is largely a fiction whose existence is supported if not wholly generated by parents in order to stimulate the imagination of their own children. The fact that children are supposed to be good in return for Santa's largesse is simply a tag on by parents wanting a compliant child rather than a naughty one.

 

[Traitorfish]

I figured he was more like a Christian wrenchman. Can't get the kiddos to be nice out of pureness of spirit? Here, do some dirty work and bribe the little buggers. Sure it's not as pure as God's love, but it's not cold and distant like it either. Christianity with a tad of graft and muscle.

I think you overstate the case here. Let's not forget that Santa is largely a fiction whose existence is supported if not wholly generated by parents in order to stimulate the imagination of their own children. The fact that children are supposed to be good in return for Santa's largesse is simply a tag on by parents wanting a compliant child rather than a naughty one.

Right, which is all deeply un-Christian. Christian morals are supposed to be internalised, not achieved by barter or coercion. In Christian philosophy, it's literally impossible to force somebody to be good. So the Santa-tradition is falling back onto a different moral logic, arguably a pre-Christian moral logic, which casts virtue in terms of adherence to cultural norms and the distribution of material goods rather than Christian piety. Whether or not it's employed cynically by parents, even Christian ones, the logic has to stand, or the mythology doesn't work.

 

[Borachio]

Yes. But it's a step on the way to being internalized. Don't forget that Santa "knows whether you've been good or bad".

This is quite sophisticated stuff, imo. It's teaching children a theory of mind which isn't immediately obvious to most of us.

 

[Farm Boy]

Christianity is a bit hard on children. They're shockingly selfless fairly often, but the unfairness of it all is grating. Perhaps it's an easing into the austerity of the love. Or at least it can be used as such. No argument at all on it being pre-Christian moral logic.

 

[Borachio]

Children shockingly selfless? I've not seen that very often. Infants typically think they're the centre of the universe.

 

[bhsup]

the Anglo-American Father Christmas is just some old guy in a fur coat, not even a hint of Christian piety about him. Tone down the cloak and poke an eye out, you're looking at Odin.

I'd like to sing you a song...

Here comes Santa Claus, here comes Santa Claus,
Right down Santa Claus lane
Vixen and Blitzen and all his reindeer
Pullin' on the reins
Bells are ringin', children singin'
All is merry and bright
Hang your stockings and say your prayers
'Cause Santa Claus comes tonight!

Here comes Santa Claus, here comes Santa Claus,
Right down Santa Claus lane
He's got a bag that's filled with toys
For boys and girls again
Hear those sleigh bells jingle jangle,
Oh what a beautiful sight
So jump in bed and cover your head
'Cause Santa Claus comes tonight!

Here comes Santa Claus, here comes Santa Claus,
Right down Santa Claus lane
He doesn't care if you're rich or poor
He loves you just the same
Santa Claus knows we're all Gods children
That makes everything right
So fill your hearts with Christmas cheer
'Cause Santa Claus comes tonight!

Here comes Santa Claus, here comes Santa Claus,
Right down Santa Claus lane
He'll come around when the chimes ring out
That it's Christmas morn again
Peace on earth will come to all
If we just follow the light
So lets give thanks to the lord above
That Santa Claus comes tonight!


Link to video.

So don't you worry, Santa is righteous

EDIT: Oh dear God, I had to change videos. Apologies to anyone who was mortified by the reindeer team shown about halfway through. I honestly didn't expect that.

 

[Borachio]

Gene Autry!!!!

It's been a dark dank dreich day today, but it just got a bit dreicher.

 

[warpus]

Children shockingly selfless? I've not seen that very often. Infants typically think they're the centre of the universe.

Infants are like cats - except they can't even be potty trained until years later. They will just randomly poop wherever they want. It's a horrible state of affairs. I don't understand how people can put up with those things.

 

[Borachio]

They will even, given the right circumstances, pee straight in your eye without bothering to ask a bye your leave.

 

[Farm Boy]

Children shockingly selfless? I've not seen that very often. Infants typically think they're the centre of the universe.

Infants are the center of their universe. They don't have the mental acuity to put themselves outside of themselves yet. Hence children, instead. And it might be during that phase when they're just starting to develop that ability. If Mommy and Daddy, and siblings exist in that phase where they're still quite literally extensions of self there exists this capacity for selflessness through selfishness that requires some gymnastics to reclaim with a more adult mind.

 

[Borachio]

I see. So the selflessness of the child is really selfishness. Is that what you're saying?

I don't think it takes much to reclaim that. In fact, I'd say that's the easy route to selflessness.

But wait... does that really take you to selflessness or just more selfishness? Albeit of a rather benign kind.

 

[Farm Boy]

Adult selfishness with a more defined sense of self is more accurately applied.

 

[Traitorfish]

Yes. But it's a step on the way to being internalized. Don't forget that Santa "knows whether you've been good or bad".

This is quite sophisticated stuff, imo. It's teaching children a theory of mind which isn't immediately obvious to most of us.

What do "good" or "bad" mean, in this context? I don't think Santa's actually gazing into your soul. It's all about behaviour, about politeness and obedience: in other words, adherence to (geographically and historically) local norms. Christian morality, in contrast, is all about developing the inner drive towards virtue despite and often actively in contradiction to norms.

 

[Borachio]

Christian morality, in contrast, is all about developing the inner drive towards virtue despite and often actively in contradiction to norms.

Is it? I really wouldn't know. How do Christians go about that, then?

 

[Farm Boy]

What do "good" or "bad" mean, in this context? I don't think Santa's actually gazing into your soul. It's all about behaviour, about politeness and obedience: in other words, adherence to (geographically and historically) local norms. Christian morality, in contrast, is all about developing the inner drive towards virtue despite and often actively in contradiction to norms.

And is there not a lesson in this for the inevitable morphing of the reality of Santa Claus with age? Perhaps one people tend to miss?

 

[Borachio]

What does that mean? The "inevitable morphing of the reality of Santa Claus with age"?

Do you mean discovering that Santa is fiction? Seems a strange way of putting it.

 

[Farm Boy]

Dunno, seems like he's everywhere. And a pretty fun memory of childhood, and a pretty fun part of parenthood. If you want it to be. Has pretty much all the elements of being a real thing. It's just you wind up finding out that it takes significantly more work on the part of people who love you or at least wish you well than it takes mystical intervention.

 

[Borachio]

You don't find it troubling that so many parents are telling their children out and out lies?

Don't you remember the real let-down of discovering it was all a fiction?

Then there was that business with the tooth fairy. As for the Easter bunny I don't think I ever fell for that one, because I think even my parents thought it was too much.

There's something deeply unsettling about all this. No wonder people are less inclined to swallow all that religious stuff. They've been had before.

Or is it all just a bit of theatre? A kind of domestic pantomime.