Adventurer GPPs - National Epic or not?

[TravellingHat]

Fellow FfHers: your opinions please.

What combination of buildings, civics and traits will yeild the most adventurers for the Grigori? Should the National Epic be used along with the Adventurer buildings?

To my mind, the basics, which must be in the capital with no other GPP producing buildings, are:

Grigori Palace +2 Adv
Monument +15% GPP
Adventurers' Guild +2 Adv, +25% GPP
Grigori Tavern +1 Adv
Pacifism +50%
Republic +25%
Philosophical +100%

This yields a base 5 + 215% = 10.75/turn, 100% chance Adventurer

Now, adding the National Epic brings this up to 5 + 315% = 15.75/turn, but since there are 3 vs 1 sources, I reckon it should be 75% Adventurer, 25% Great Commander.

And so for your opnions: is it worth building the National Epic in the capital? It increases the GPP rate by about a third, at the cost of a 25% chance of a Great Commander (which is hardly uselss, after all).

Are there any other means of boosting this that I'm not aware of, other than a Golden Age?

Your thoughts?

 

[Sureshot]

it ups your base to 6, the 1 commander point
and then isnt it 1/6th possibility, so 16.7% chance? (each point from buildings is worth as much as any other point from buildings, i think; as opposed to points from specialists which aren't worth as much for determining the type of great person gotten)
and when you add 315%, you multiply by 315% + 100%, so 6*4.15=24.9/turn

so youre looking at 15.75/turn versus 24.9/turn with 16.7% chance of a great commander, which is nice for the extra +1 strength and +1 xp/fight

so i am of the opinion it's worth it, in fact, it's a necessity. and you aren't likely to ever get more great commanders than you get adventurers, so you'll always have an adventurer to attach that great commander to, unless you get one without a great commander attached to it killed

 

[TravellingHat]

Ah, I forgot the GC point, and I wasn't sure how the chance/person worked (all sources equal or weighted). However, since maths was never my strength, I'll bow to your greater understanding.

It was my gut feel the NE was a good idea. It's not as if I'd be unhappy with the occassional GC.

Cheers

 

[Caradoc]

Perhaps you could do better developing a second city as an Adventurer GP farm. You lose the 2 points from the capital, but the rest works at the second city. This leaves you flexibility in growing your capital, which will still generate a GP every so often -- and some of these will be Adventurers. Your GP farm will have to work harder as the GPP cost goes up, but that could be offset by the faster accumulation of GPPs by the two cities.

 

[loki1232]

Furthermore, you can use the non-adventurer GPs granted by the capital to create a golden age.

 

[vorshlumpf]

I found out during BtS playtesting that the weighting for GP is based on sources, not totals. So if you had a wonder with +3 Bard points and +1 Priest points, you'd have 4 GPP per turn and a 50/50 chance for either type.

The Grigori question was one I faced before, too (I've only played them once so far) and opted to go without the Epic. However, if you think about it, it's not so bad to get the Great Commander and attach it to one of the adventurers that you'll already have, making the adventurer even more powerful.

 

[TravellingHat]

Well, this only the second game I've played the Grigori. My first try was on Nikis Knight's 19 Civs map, and I managed to nab the Great Library in my research city, and built up a production city with Form of the Titan and other GC wonders including my National Epic. The capital was reserved mostly for adventurers, but I did pollute it with the Great Lighthouse. Every city got an adventurers' guild, and where worthwhile a Grigori tavern.

In retrospect, these were mistakes. The Great Library competed too well with my capital (though the GS were useful), and though I nudged up the GPP with the Great Lighthouse, I should have kept the capital purer (particularly since the benefits of the Great Lighthouse are empire wide). I was getting adventurers, but popped a few GS and GC, and a GM as well - more than I really wanted.

So, second game, on a random map this time, and I want to try to keep the adventurers popping out of the capital, and be more choosy with my wonders (e.g. I've nabbed the Form of the Titan, for the empire wide xp bonus, but will avoid further wonders in that city). My plan is as outlined above, with the National Epic in the capital. I realise I may want the occassional other Great Person (academy, tech pops etc), but for those I plan to use non-wonder buildings and civics, and run specialists as required. We'll see how it goes.

 

[Caradoc]

I found out during BtS playtesting that the weighting for GP is based on sources, not totals. So if you had a wonder with +3 Bard points and +1 Priest points, you'd have 4 GPP per turn and a 50/50 chance for either type.

This might explain why I have been getting those Great Bards -- could it be that the Carnival counts as a Great Bard source?

BTW: is there a listing somewhere of what yields GPPs?

 

[zxcvbnm]

I thought that the propability is based on how much different sources have given gpp to the pool.

If you have two free sages in a city giving 6 gpp/turn, and then when your gpp is 1/2 of getting the next GP you add a priest, you'll have something like
(100% sage)/2 +(66% gsage + 33% gprophet)/2 = 83% gsage and 17% gprophet

So adding some specialists for a while shouldn't cause too much problems in getting adventurers, only some 5% prob, and gprophets are actually nice for the grigori because of the altar of luonnotar, which is a natural victory for the grigori.

 

[Calavente]

there is an interrogation
Is Cassiel allowed to build some wonders to get max adventurers ? When does adding wonders/specialist improves number of adventurers ? When does it stops to be interesting ?

note :adding some wonders gives 1s ource of "non-adv" but only 2 or 1 gpp while a specialist gives 1 source of "not-adv" but 3gpp : much more interesting in term of ratio speed of GP/%of adv... what is best ?

here is the experiment leading to the interrogation :
-comparing adding a priest specialist in capital better and adding national epic in term of "adv" production (starting with 0gpp in capital city)?

==> both GC and priest are as interesting in the end for cassiel (altar for boosted/quick luonnatars or attached GC)

I try some basic maths in capital with previous numbers:

nothing : 5*3.15=15.75 gpp/turn toward adv...

National epic :6*4.15=24.9/turn, 75% chance adv (3sources adv, 1source GC)= 18.67 gpp/turn toward adv....

Priest specialist : (5+3)*(1+215%)=8*3.15= 25.2, 75% chance adv, 25%chance priest= 18.9 gpp/turn toward adv.

National epic + Priest : (5+3+1)*4.15= 9*4.15= 37.35, 60%adv, 10%priest, 10%GC= 22.41 gpp/turn toward adv... + somtimes bonus priest and GC...

Conclusion 1 :
-thus, adding a priest + National epic in capiatl is best : more GP overall, and more adventurer produced (normaly)
-this conlusion may change if someone do the maths with the increased price of GP..

experiment 2

2 Priest specialist : (5+6)*(315%)=11*3.15= 34,6, 60% chance adv, 40%chance priest (3sources vs 2 sources)= 20.79 gpp/turn toward adv. 1.9more than without 2nd priest

National epic + 2Priest : (5+6+1)*4.15= 12*4.15= 49.8, 50%adv (3sources), 33%priest (2sources), 16.7%GC (1source)= 24.9 gpp/turn toward adv... 2.5 more than without 2nd priest

National epic + 1Priest +tomb of sucellus (you want free life mana for heal and +2 : (5+3+1+2)*4.15= 11*4.15= 45.65, 50%adv, 33%priest, 16.7%GC= 22.82 gpp/turn toward adv... 0.4 more than wihtout wonder

3 Priest specialist : (5+9)*(315%)=14*3.15= 44.1, 50% chance adv, 50%chance priest = 20.79 gpp/turn toward adv. same adv gpp as 2 priests...

National epic + 3Priest : (5+9+1)*4.15= 15*4.15= 62.25, 43%adv (3sources), 43%priest (3sources) 14.4%GC (1source)= 26.67 gpp/turn toward adv... 1.8more than without 3rd priest

conclusion 2

Increasing gpp seems to always gives at least same gpp/turn devoted to adventurers with quicker GP production,
So In theory, with increased gpp in capital, you should always have at least the same nb of adv, while for some additions, you may have more adv by adding foreign gpp than without.

BUT:
-we see a diminishing return.
-gains are less straightforward due to increased cost of GP... (producing 2 times more gpp does not mean 2 times more GP) (getting 700 instead of 350 means 3GP +100gpp instead of 2GP+50gpp)
-75% adv does not really mean 3adv out of 4 GP, only a mean of 3adv for 4 Gp in 100games.
-As when playing with gregory you will never have a GP farm with 30-40 raw gpp, the impact of secondary cities is not negligible on GP rate and adventurer throughput
-what if the city with added gpp is the capital or if it is a GP farm...etc.

So while I would choose anytime to add 1 priest then National epic in capital, I may be wrong with choosing to add a 2nd priest ... or I may improve my throughput of adv by boosting a secondary city with 1 or 2 priests.. or cities with 1 or 2 priests... or I may (or may not) reduce my adv throughput by allowing 1 or 2 wonders on secondary cities, it may even improve my throughput of adventurers...

Question

I can't do the maths with so many variables, but if somebody can add impact of increased GP cost and prediction of neighbouring cities... I'd like it

 

[Calavente]

ok, I've worked out a bit of it with excell

still no influence of secondary cities... I have no ideas how to do it easily.

for the experiment :

Spoiler :

2 main basis :
-you can make your change after 300 raw gpp put on adv (wait for 2 adventurers before introducing new gpp)
-you make your change after 1000 raw gpp have been used only on Adv (wait for 4 adventurers before introducing new gpp)

2 main calculus : if 0.60% chance having an adventurer :
rounded down rounded closest
if 1 GP : 0.6 ==> 0Adv ==> 1Adv
if 2 GP : 1.2 ==> 1Adv ==> 1Adv
if 3 GP : 1.8 ==> 1Adv ==> 2Adv
if 4 GP : 2.4 ==> 2Adv ==> 2Adv
if 5 GP : 3.0 ==> 3Adv ==> 3Adv
if 6 GP : 3.6 ==> 3Adv ==> 4Adv
...
rounded down : you are almost sure to have those numbers... rounded closest : more representative of a theorical mean of many games

so :
experiment

Spoiler :

base situation :

Grigori Palace +2 Adv
Monument +15% GPP
Adventurers' Guild +2 Adv, +25% GPP
Grigori Tavern +1 Adv
Pacifism +50%
Republic +25%
Philosophical +100%

experiments :
-raw capital, purist Cassiel : never introduce new gpp. work only with capital and no other. (blue)
-Use the National Epic : +1gpp GC, +100%gpp (yellow)
-Use 1 priest specialist : +3gpp P. (green)
-Use NE + Priest : +1 gpp GC, +3gpp P, +100%gpp (red)
-Use 2 specialist (2P / 1P-1S..) : +6gpp (orange)

on the graphs :
3 informations :
-raw xp gained in the city (linear line)
-nb of new GP produced in the capital (spoted stairs)
-nb of new Adventurer produced in the capital (full stairs)

Observations

Spoiler :

#Using yellow or green (NE or 1specialist)
-are so close that they are totally equivalent in term of both total great people produced and adventurer produced, with only differences of about 5 turns at some times.
-give in bonus 1 Gp for each 2-3 Adv (depending on adv spawn rate)
-rounded closest : produces the same amount of adventurers, giving them mostly before the raw produced adv until turn 600.
-rounded down : gives you adventurers later than raw operation, becoming important (>20turns) after 250 turns.

==> even with rounded down calculus, they are still interesting as you get 33% more GP.

#using NE + priest (red):
-But you get 2 times more bonus GP than with only 1 addition.
-you get the 7 first adventurer some turns before any other means for 300turns then on average they come later or at the same time.
-with rounded down : you get the 7 first adv at the same time as raw, then a bit later. even later after 500 turns
-still gives adventures mostly before either NE or P.

#2 specialists (orange)
-for total GP almost as performant as NE + P : only 1 Gp less
-for adv : between NE + P and 1 choice for 100-200turns, then much less efficient
==> not a good solution

#going after the 2nd av or after the 4th adv ?
-after the 4th Adv seems to inflates the differences observed before :
1chgt improves raw Gp nb and hastens adv appearance, using both NE and specialist improves this again.
-furthermore, for red case, afer 150 turn, you have a total of 10 Gp (counting the 2 or 4 GP) in both cases
==> so earlier is better !!! with 2 less adv to begin with, in 130 t, it is almost negligible, but you have started earlier.. so those numbers are earlier in the game.
respectively, total adv are : 8 and 7 for waiting after the 2nd;
-using 2 specialist is worse if you wait more

Conclusions
#looking at "graph 300 expanded" : getting 2priest after NE is still an improvement, both on raw mode and NE + priest...
getting 3 priests is worse than 2 priests in terme of adv production but better in term of GP prod.

#when you are arrived at max production of adventurer gpp and max gpp modifiers, add asap 1 priest specialist and go straight to build the NE in the capital. Then if you can add a 2nd specialist it is even better (in that order) ==> you will explode your GP production and gain the same number of adventureres, but quicker !

#if you have not the max raw gpp (ex 3) or max modifier (ex +115%) changes:
_not max raw : getting NE is less important (short term boost 150t, long term loss) getting 1 priest or better 2 specialist or better 1priest + NE is much more efficient !!! those 3 solutions are even more powerful than if raw gpp is at max. maybe not too many specialists ?? first : 2specialist while building NE, then ... at least 1 specialist...
_ not max modifiers.. : going NE + priest or NE can improve your lot for a time, going 1 or 2 priest are short term boost 50t, long terme loose for adv numbers..
you should go NE + priest and run for getting the max modifiers possible.
_if neither max modifiers nor max raw adv gpp : go for priest then NE !!! and then go for all you can take in gpp modif and raw adv gpp. then get a 2nd specialist...

#needed
-still no no real study of evolution of strategy while you are building your adv gpp and gpp modifiers... there is maybe an optimum path.
-still no study of secondary cities

 

[Calavente]

ok, with one city,
programing more realistic situation with vba ...
previous info are true as a mean.
but random is very random !!!

adventurer ratio can change from game to game, with exactly the same play.
some times, going specialist + NE gives you 17 vs 12 adventurer after 500turns (without NE nor specialist), sometimes, you only get 6.

sometime 9 times in a row you get a GP (60%chance ADv) some other times, still with 60%chance Gp, you can have 7 adv in a row...

Conclusion :
not adding NE nor specialist is risk free but low rate.

adding any specialist or wonder you gain more GP and may improve a the theorical mean of gaining adventurers
BUT : there are risks.. some game you will earn more adv, some games you will earn far less. not due to your gameplay, only due to luck ==> winning more at more risk ...

 

[Sureshot]

to me i think if you can accept the expected average, then its worth it. getting a great commander every now and then i can deal with, in fact, its ideal to have a great commander for my adventurers. but getting more than 1 great scientist, or any great prophets, just isnt worth it.

 

[Calavente]

1-2 GS gets you 1-2 academy or some magic related science...
1-2 prophet.. early altar ?? no you don't really need it as you have luonnatars...
1-2 GE : storing help for the last altar...
+in some case, NE + specialist can reward you with lot more adventurers... but sometime much less.. (mean is for a adventurers gained earlier, maybe 1-2 more at the same time)

 

[Love]

My brain hurts.

 

[TravellingHat]

My brain hurts.

Mine too.

Charts, formulae: wow, you've really gone to town there! I can't say I haven't had detailed feedback, that's for sure.

On balance, I think near-purity is preferable to high risk big wins, as they all too often seem to be high risk big losses (e.g. in a Ljosalfar game, running a whole cult of priests in the Song of Autumn, and consistently getting bards... argh! but that's another story).

In my current Grigori game, I'm aiming for the set up with NE in the capital. The GCs can only add to the might of the heroes, or if unneccesary go off to train the regular troops in my production centre. Other great people, while by no means useless, I'll just perceive as "could have been an adventurer".

In other cities, I'm building all the adventuer-producing stuff possible, and am being very stingey with the wonders: I've got the Form of the Titan in my production city, and may go for the Great Lighthouse in my commerce city, as both of these give empire-wide benefits (a departure for me, as I'm usually a bit of a wondermonger). Hopefully on those occasions when another city pops, there's a good chance of it being an adventurer.

PS :

As an aside, I got the hero event for my first hero - Nosomance - who'd already plateaued at 100xp. I was so disappointed, because I thought it was auto-xp up to 100. Oh no, no, no... it's +100xp, so his new ceiling for auto-xp is 200. Youch! He's going to be one lean, mean axe-swinging machine! I just wish I'd picked charismatic instead of arcane for my most recent trait change. It made up for watching Larry and Curly get slaughtered defending against lizardmen (while fortified on a jungle hill and at near full health - curse you RNG). Moe is inconsolable, though.

 

[Mortenart]

you aren't likely to ever get more great commanders than you get adventurers, so you'll always have an adventurer to attach that great commander to, unless you get one without a great commander attached to it killed

Since .25 came out, you havn`t been able to attach Great Commanders to other units, only recruit new units or build a command post. Much preferred the old way as the recruited units are largely obsolete, and therefore next to useless. Apart from the occassional command post, I always used GC`s to attach to another unit and really liked this concept (having a roving General with a personal unit of guards). As it is, the Great Commander is merely abstract.

 

[TravellingHat]

Since .25 came out, you havn`t been able to attach Great Commanders to other units

Ah, pants.

I do like to have a command post or two, but seldom need more. I'd rather have most of my cities producing money. With the advent of events that give better rewards if you have some spare cash, and the expense of upgrading, I like my treasury to be firmly in the green. Also, since I intend to stay in pacifism constantly (barring national emergency) I want the military to be quality over quantity: after all, an elite unit costs the same upkeep as a novice.

Well, if probability is with me, and I get 1 GC to 2-4 adventurers, then by the time I pop a second GC I'd hopefully have 4-8 adventuers. Actually, I already have three heroes and haven't actually finished the NE yet, so the GC/hero ratio is already tipped in favour of heroes.

I can't say I've ever used a GC for recruiting. Is it worth keeping one in the bag to rustle up some quick cannon fodder in an emergency?

 

[Mortenart]

I can't say I've ever used a GC for recruiting. Is it worth keeping one in the bag to rustle up some quick cannon fodder in an emergency?

Not really, considering the humungous unit stacks that come calling since BtS. As you say, quality is far more important than quantity. Cannon fodder just feeds enemy promotions. The only use it might have is if you`ve got an outpost that needs to buy some time before reinforcements arrive. I`m hoping they`ll revert GC`s to how they were before, I`m guessing it`s just a hangover from BtS that they havn`t had time to address yet.

 

[Sureshot]

you havent been able to attach great commanders in 0.25? i have been able to O_o