Advice for current game (prince)...

Shekwan

Kim Chi Quaffing Celt
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I'm playing Prince recently a lot, I used to play noble. I'm usually ahead for a while until around the point of this save. Then the AI seems to slowly but surely get ahead in techs. Is the main problem here that all the AIs are best friends for life and wouldn't think about denying a tach to each other? I bribed Cyrus into free religion to try and create a tech trading block with me and him versus the rest.

Also I'm using a GE to build Versailles on my colony, do you think this is the best use. And generally what am I doing wrong, thats causing me to slip. I'm #1 in GNP and Mfng goods and not far behind in population (3rd) btw. Any advice is much appreciated.:goodjob:
 

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Also I'm using a GE to build Versailles on my colony, do you think this is the best use.
I like to do that myself so I would say it's a good use for the Engineer (unless there is some other wonder available which clearly beats Versailles, that depends on your actual game).
 
I have about three nearly built Universities and libraries everywhere that there is significant science. I generally don't settle great people because lightbulbing I find is more effective - I mostly get Great Scientists. So I'll build an academy, lightbulb Philosophy and most of education in an effort to get liberalism. These techs are of high trade value too usually. I have about 10 cities, three of which are on another landmass - it's a standard size map.

Yeah i usually use a GE to build Versailles when I get one cos by the point in the game that I get Divine Right it could be almost build - and theres usually few other options.
 
I have about three nearly built Universities and libraries everywhere that there is significant science. I generally don't settle great people because lightbulbing I find is more effective - I mostly get Great Scientists. So I'll build an academy, lightbulb Philosophy and most of education in an effort to get liberalism. These techs are of high trade value too usually. I have about 10 cities, three of which are on another landmass - it's a standard size map.

Yeah i usually use a GE to build Versailles when I get one cos by the point in the game that I get Divine Right it could be almost build - and theres usually few other options.

So you already have Education...that means you can build Oxford University.

What are the plans for Oxford and the 6 required Universities?
 
I'm gonna put Oxford in London which is my highest science city, I have two GP farms which are going to have Universities. That leaves on more city to build another University, probably a colony one, as it has lots of food for scientists. I have a second city that has high science but thats cos it makes a lot of money, I'm gonna use that for Wall street - it has a shrine but its not a primary religion (not like I'm pumoing out the Great Prophets either).
 
One way to deal with this type of situation is to turn off tech brokering--then the AIs are more limited in what they can tech-swap.

Alternatively, work on diplomacy with your high-tech neighbors and join the tech-swapping party!

(It is definitely more of a challenge to keep a significant tech lead on prince level than on noble, I've found.)
 
I'm gonna put Oxford in London which is my highest science city, I have two GP farms which are going to have Universities. That leaves on more city to build another University, probably a colony one, as it has lots of food for scientists. I have a second city that has high science but thats cos it makes a lot of money, I'm gonna use that for Wall street - it has a shrine but its not a primary religion (not like I'm pumoing out the Great Prophets either).

What's the basic timeline for the Universities and Oxford?

I tend to find that waiting too long after Education can allow other civs to get a technological edge by building Oxford themselves.

Another point that arises is the tradeoff between bulbing your GS and settling him. By bulbing him, you gain a temporary jump towards Education, but if it's taking you too many turns to build Oxford, then that jump may not be worthwhile compared to settling.

Because settling gives you +6 beakers (+9 with Representation) that is typically tripled after settling in your Oxford city.
 
Okay, rather than start another thread with the same name, I'll just throw a new question in here.


I've got a game going as Pericles. I expanded to 6-7 cities, but had a tough time growing most of them due to a high percentage of plains tiles and tundra to the south. I'm now ready to expand to the east, (I'm on the west coast) and that means taking out the Chinese. The Chinese are the low man on the score list, as they are pinned by me on one side and Japan on the other. I've got the ability to make Knights, Elephants, Macemen, and am a few turns away from Engineering if I choose to do so. China is nowhere near Engineering.

I'm thinking about a two pronged attack to make this war go more quickly. I don't think my economy can handle a long war, nor do I think I will have a shot at winning if I don't expand immediately. I'd like to take the slow units (melee/elephants/siege) into the Chinese mainland, since that's the best defended (although still pretty lightly) and the most desirable area. While that is going on, I'd like to run a stack of Knights through all recently settled cities (about 6-7) including a couple that he dropped into the tundra right below my territory. They're all basically defended by a single axe or sword and a single archer or longbow. They are also all size 1-3, and mostly unimproved at this point. (I predict a lot of razing, keeping only the ones that will keep Japan "we don't do open borders" from crossing over and backfilling the area.)

Here's the question: Has anybody ever used a stack exclusively made up of mounted units to take out a bunch of cities? If so, how did you do it and what were the lessons learned?

I am concerned about spears. I suppose that I could attempt to move a couple melee units straight through enemy territory to have them waiting for the Knights when they get there, but that would divert troops from my other main battle group.
 
I've got a game going as Pericles. I expanded to 6-7 cities, but had a tough time growing most of them due to a high percentage of plains tiles and tundra to the south. I'm now ready to expand to the east, (I'm on the west coast) and that means taking out the Chinese.
Two remarks on that:

1. You say that you have problems growing your cities, so I assume some of them are without a food resource. Only settle close to at least one food resource, keep those other spots for later (backfilling and mid/late game expansion). Block off territory with good cities. "Good" means "has one or more food resources". Food is extremely important, it cannot be stressed enough.

2. If you have (somewhat) close neighbours, like that Chinese to your east, settle aggressively towards him. Possibly this will leave some empty areas in between your frontier and your capital (the coast in this case), which is OK because the AI will not settle it until much later in the game when it runs out of room, giving you plenty of time to fill it in at your leisure.
Had you settled towards the Chinese early, blocking him off you would now have less cities to take away from him by force.

Of course since you haven't posted a screenshot I'm kind of guessing here.

Here's the question: Has anybody ever used a stack exclusively made up of mounted units to take out a bunch of cities? If so, how did you do it and what were the lessons learned?
Yes, many people actually do that and you can conquer very aggressively that way. One problem you have to solve is how to get rid of the defense bonuses, and since you won't bring siege (that would slow down your mounted troops) you need to have plenty of spies to crack the cities with high defense bonuses (probably from walls/castles).
Also, Knights are not very well suited because they can't withdraw from battle without promotions, so you will have many casualties (probably too many). Horse Archers or Cuirassiers are better suited for such an assault.
 
I don't worry about the defense bonuses. Just mix in enough flanking 2 units and hope some of them live. No cost no glory.
 
Yeah, sorry about the lack of screen shot. Maybe I can get that for you later.

Thank you for your reply. I did my best to settle near food, and yet I still end up with minus 7 or minus 8 when I count the food in my BFCs. It's like I get +2 or +3 from the cows, sheep, or grain, but then everything else is plains. I also did EXACTLY what you you said about blocking off the Chinese as soon as I could. It's a big reason they are such a backwards nation right now, and also a big reason why he's got so many crappy little cities in crappy territory that I now need to exterminate. If I hadn't run my first two settlers right over to the two best sites on his western border, I would have been at war a long time ago.


As for the very interesting comment about Knights, I had no idea that Knights don't come with a withdraw %. Let's talk about that for a second.

They will be coming out of my stables with 7XP. I will be facing lower level melee and archery units. Maybe I'll see some longbows. All of these cities will be 20% cultural defenses. What promotions are going to make this go most smoothly?
-- My first thought was one with combat-medic; then the rest with combat-melee and combat-cover. The 10 strength + 10% +25% should be able to deal with most axes and archers, but I thought I'd also have a small chance of withdraw as well.
-- But would it make more sense to go with flanking? Flanking 2 is +10% +20% and immune to first strikes. The first strikes is useless, as the Knights already have that. If I understand it correctly, the +35% from the combat + whatever is better than the 30% withdraw. Please correct me if that isn't true.
-- Then, since these units are starting with 7/10, I should see some level 4 units fairly quickly. What is the third promotion in either line? I could add flanking as the third promotion to the combat line. that would be 10% but would open up the extra 20% for level 5 promotions. That could be really useful after this conflict if I need to upgrade them to cavalry some day.
 
One thing to note when you're at prince or higher: The AIs start getting discounts on techs here so if you both have the same beaker output the AIs will pull ahead. Usually this can be solved by either working/specializing your cities better, utilizing trading more effectively or by aquiring more land than any AI. The need for bigger land than the opponents increase dramatically as you go up in levels (though I've seen tactics that goes around this in different ways). If you couple this with the fact that the AI focuses alot on expansion but little on military buildup in the early game you can see why many players consider an axe rush -strategy to be very effective.
 
I did my best to settle near food, and yet I still end up with minus 7 or minus 8 when I count the food in my BFCs. It's like I get +2 or +3 from the cows, sheep, or grain, but then everything else is plains.
Sometimes your land just PLAIN sucks (hee hee), but if you have a food resource at least you have the surplus to let the city grow fast after founding. With 10 plains tiles in the BFC it's just natural that it will be a loooong time until that city grows to the limit (probably not before Biology anyway), lots of plains with no food is just not worth settling the spot unless it contains a vital strategic resource.

Oh, and don't plan every city to grow to max size eventually, many games don't last long enough for that to happen anyway, at least not for later cities. For that reason, some city overlap is usually not a problem either.

I also did EXACTLY what you you said about blocking off the Chinese as soon as I could.
Good ;-). It's not easy to overcome the initial habit of settling (more or less) back-to-back starting at your capital, for fear of distance and the enemy filling in "your spots" before you can. On Prince it's still kind of easy to block off land, but the higher you get the harder it becomes. I'm currently trying myself on Emperor where the AI already settles very fast (some of them, at least), so you have to be aggressive as well.

They will be coming out of my stables with 7XP. I will be facing lower level melee and archery units. Maybe I'll see some longbows. All of these cities will be 20% cultural defenses. What promotions are going to make this go most smoothly?
I'm not exactly a warmonger, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but still:

If you go the suicide-horse route then Flanking I and II are the best promotions, because they increase your withdrawal chance. You will probably have to crack single spearmen or pikemen so you kind of need some withdraw% as not to lose too many units to these defenders. I'm not saying that storming in with Knights is not feasible, especially if your opponent doesn't have Engineering yet, but it is often better to go in even earlier (with Horse Archers) or later (with Curassiers and Cavalry) because those units have an innate withdraw% and you get more "bang for the buck" since less casualties on averages means hammers saved for other things.

-- My first thought was one with combat-medic; then the rest with combat-melee and combat-cover. The 10 strength + 10% +25% should be able to deal with most axes and archers, but I thought I'd also have a small chance of withdraw as well.
I recommend building a chariot or horse archer (if either of these is still available) with C1+Medic and then attach your first Great General to that unit only, giving it an additional 20 XP and opening the Medic III promotion. You then promote with Medic II, Medic III and Morale. You get a 3-movement unit that heals for 25% per turn on its own tile and all adjacent tiles. Many people call this the M*A*S*H unit.
It's good to pick a weak unit for that purpose (e.g. chariot) so it won't "accidentally" defend your stack and die early... Never upgrade it, it will not heal better just from being a Cavalry or Helicopter :-). (Well, the heli would make some sense since they have 4 base movement instead of 2, but that would be very late in the game anyway.)

It's totally worth the (high) expenditure of a Great General, believe me.

-- But would it make more sense to go with flanking? Flanking 2 is +10% +20% and immune to first strikes. The first strikes is useless, as the Knights already have that. If I understand it correctly, the +35% from the combat + whatever is better than the 30% withdraw. Please correct me if that isn't true.
+35% from combat promotions does not mean that your chance to win increases by 35%. However, a 30% withdraw chance means that no matter how strong your opposition is, you always get that chance for your unit to be saved if it had died otherwise. So a high withdraw chance is good if your combat odds are bad, while it won't do much for you if your chance for winning is very high anyway (if they win they won't have to withdraw in the first place).
Therefore, Flanking is good on units that are supposed to "soften up" or "crack through" tough city defenders, or to just generally increase the survival rate amongst your units if your not facing high odds of winning already.

You might not want to give all your mounted units Flanking I+II for the above reasons. Bring some Flanking units to soften the grounds and mop up with Combat units.

-- Then, since these units are starting with 7/10, I should see some level 4 units fairly quickly. What is the third promotion in either line? I could add flanking as the third promotion to the combat line. that would be 10% but would open up the extra 20% for level 5 promotions. That could be really useful after this conflict if I need to upgrade them to cavalry some day.
Sentry is good to have on at least one unit per stack so you can see further. On the Combat line I would probably just go Combat 1, 2, 3, ... and maybe give some counter-promotions (against mounted, melee, archers, gunpowder, ..., depending on the era and units you are facing most likely).

In any case, don't promote your units until they've actually reached their targets, because you might realize that your needs have changed and then you can still decide on a different promotion line than you had originally planned, or distribute them differently etc.

In those games where I've used many mounted units in city raiding campaigns I've gone in with a healthy mix of Flanking II and Combat promoted guys, but I haven't got a lot of experience with this strategy before Cavalry.
 
If i have basically a lot of plains and no food resources. I just farm all of them. 2:food:1:hammers: tiles are better than nothing They get a granary/monument/barracks and a courthouse. They basically just produce low quality troops for either happiness under HR or basic home defense. The 2:food: in the city center provides growth. Windmills on all the grassland hills in the BC are also food nuetral and provide a :hammers: and some commerce. They will always be sucky little cities but their modest contribution can help. They are especially good for building disposable siege engines to take the first whacks and suffer for the team. You can also have them build wealth. It's not going to make you rich, but it might mean the differance in a notch on the slider
 
I don't worry about the defense bonuses. Just mix in enough flanking 2 units and hope some of them live. No cost no glory.

How much do you use mongolia :lol: ?

It's ok with the horse archers early on, but I'd advocate using spies after that because defenses get too big, even with withdrawals. Basically it's a hammers cost/benefit thing. At some point cutting the defenses with spies (not to mention those nasty iron/copper sites ;) ) saves you hammers in the long run.
 
If i have basically a lot of plains and no food resources. I just farm all of them. 2:food:1:hammers: tiles are better than nothing They get a granary/monument/barracks and a courthouse. They basically just produce low quality troops for either happiness under HR or basic home defense. The 2:food: in the city center provides growth. Windmills on all the grassland hills in the BC are also food nuetral and provide a :hammers: and some commerce. They will always be sucky little cities but their modest contribution can help. They are especially good for building disposable siege engines to take the first whacks and suffer for the team. You can also have them build wealth. It's not going to make you rich, but it might mean the differance in a notch on the slider

I try to avoid settling cities with mostly plains and no food resources early (just 1 is enough to run some specialists or cottages on the plains and get something decent from them). However keep in mind that once you get biology cities like this look much less ugly and start becoming very useful contributors!
 
A couple of things based on what I said, and what you all have said since. BTW: I share all of this, because I can't figure out how you all win games like this at higher levels. I will win Monarch games when I start on standard continents maps and a favored leader, but when I play a random leader on random custom continents like this one, I need to be at prince to keep up.

1. Yeah...Knights can't get the cover promotion, so I don't know what the hell I was thinking about. This made my strategy much less effective.
2. So ineffective in fact, that it was a complete disaster. I did take the outlying crappy little cities with my knights, but it was at a huge cost of hammers do do it that way. Next time I want to attack with mounted units, I'm either doing it pre-longbows, or gunpowder units vs. longbows and melee.
3. I went back to 1AD and tried again with a REX plan to stop the Chinese expansion. I axed (get it? axed) one Chinese city that was in my way, and then settled all over the place. The economy was in the crapper for approximately a thousand years, especially since I had almost no grassland to cottage.
4. I took Civil Service as as soon as possible to start with the irrigation plan, as suggested here. It also let me change civics to make the Capital run the economy. I am now charging towards Biology, which was just underway when I got navy invaded by a small stack of Persian Grens, dammit. I've got muskets, so they should hold it off long enough for me to research steel and crank out a few Cannons to make them change their minds about further aggression. I also finally declared a religion which should make the first vote for "Stop the war" go my way, although it is probably going to cause me other problems.
5. I've got the Merchant and the Engineer tucked away for Sushi and Mining, at which point, I will head straight for tanks and then mass media. The tanks are my best shot at taking the rest of my continent (Islamic Japan and now vassal China) and the mass media is for the UN to see if I can't get a diplomatic victory now that I'm :jesus: like the rest of the Islamic hating world.

Sigh. This game has turned out to be much harder than I think it should have been for some reason. I should probably go all the way back to 4000 BC and see if I can't build a stack of axes and kill off the (pretty far away in BC terms) Chinese this time to see what happens.
 
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