Advice Needed on a Prince Game

[ShengWuLien]

Hey Tycho!

Your screenshots are taken in such a way as to make it very hard to get a feel for the land around your empire. Could you take one that centers on your capital and shows the land immediately north, west, and south of Berlin?

From what I can make out:

I see sheep north of Berlin. On their own, sheep on plains are not a great food resource but there might be seafood or something in the fog up there--worth checking out.

Other than that, there's a pretty nice spot on the coast south of Hamburg, with pigs and clams. I would probably settle on the plains tile 1 NW of the clams, so you can get a couple hills in the BFC.

There are some pigs on a hill by a river somewhere inland of you. It's close to Joao but looks like a good spot. Hard to tell from your screenies.

Before you do any of that, though, there are some basic tips for settling cities that you need to observe.

1) Cities need to be connected, by road, river, or coast, to share resources and give you extra income from trade routes. My impression is that Berlin and Hamburg are not yet connected by road. Do that next. If possible, have a road in place *before* you even settle a new city, so that it's connected right away.

2) Food is the most important resource for a city to be successful and start contributing to your empire. Hamburg is useless to you until it grows, and it can't grow without those sheep being improved. Generally speaking, you should settle a city *right next* to food and start improving that food resource as soon as the city is founded.

Which brings me to my final point for now: I recommend you switch research to Animal Husbandry so you can find any horses in your neighborhood and start improving any sheep or pigs you want to settle by.

 

[Tycho]

Hey Tycho!

Your screenshots are taken in such a way as to make it very hard to get a feel for the land around your empire. Could you take one that centers on your capital and shows the land immediately north, west, and south of Berlin?

From what I can make out:

I see sheep north of Berlin. On their own, sheep on plains are not a great food resource but there might be seafood or something in the fog up there--worth checking out.

Other than that, there's a pretty nice spot on the coast south of Hamburg, with pigs and clams. I would probably settle on the plains tile 1 NW of the clams, so you can get a couple hills in the BFC.

There are some pigs on a hill by a river somewhere inland of you. It's close to Joao but looks like a good spot. Hard to tell from your screenies.

Before you do any of that, though, there are some basic tips for settling cities that you need to observe.

1) Cities need to be connected, by road, river, or coast, to share resources and give you extra income from trade routes. My impression is that Berlin and Hamburg are not yet connected by road. Do that next. If possible, have a road in place *before* you even settle a new city, so that it's connected right away.

2) Food is the most important resource for a city to be successful and start contributing to your empire. Hamburg is useless to you until it grows, and it can't grow without those sheep being improved. Generally speaking, you should settle a city *right next* to food and start improving that food resource as soon as the city is founded.

Which brings me to my final point for now: I recommend you switch research to Animal Husbandry so you can find any horses in your neighborhood and start improving any sheep or pigs you want to settle by.

Thanks Sheng, I appreciate your advice . I'm working on getting some more indepth screenshots here, I'll have them up by tomorrow at the latest.

 

[Tycho]

Spoiler :

Alright, some more screenshots showing possible expansion. I particularly like the south with it's access to the sea which links it up automatically with Berlin, and it's food resources, and I'm thinking about settling one square northwest of the clams to snag as much forest as possible for chops. What do you guys think though? Or do I need to provide some more pictures?

 

[Tycho]

Spoiler :

Alright, so I finish chopping the wood of off that hill, which gives the Settler being built there a nice boost in terms of hammers.

Spoiler :

With that, the barracks are essentially done, so next turn we start work on something else...

Spoiler :

Mining goes on in the hills around Berlin to provide a source of hammers so that they can be used at a later time, when I stop REXing and building workers.

Spoiler :

Warrior gets where it's going to and it starts to fortify there for the next settler to come around.

Spoiler :

More mining as the settler nears completion. This will hopefully speed it up.

Spoiler :

Finally I manage to link up Hamburg and Berlin, allowing them to share resources and trade.

Spoiler :

Whoooh..... I feel so happy to still be on the chart.

Spoiler :

With that settler done, we build another one, as my warrior is going over to Jao's border to try and get a spot ready for a new city. Hopefully, I can box the Portugese in.

Spoiler :

More chops, more wood, more hammers. That settler will be ready in fourteen turns to settle wherever it pleases where I tell it to go to.

Spoiler :

I settle Munich into what I wholeheartedly believe is a prime spot, though you guys can offer up your own opinions on that.

Spoiler :

Nope.

Spoiler :

Corn linked up into the road chain hopefully I can connect Munich up soon.

Spoiler :

Off they go to the south to link up Munich.

Spoiler :

With the chops from around Hamburg, I am now able to finish up that one worker in the next turn. Two workers for every city, right?

Spoiler :

Finally able to link up Munich in the chain.

Spoiler :

Chopping to finish up the workboat in Munich is underway at the moment.

Spoiler :

Forced to move the warrior and the settler because Jao decided to snag that area over there with his city.

Spoiler :

A current map of the established Empire.

So, with Iron Working finishing up next turn, I'll rush animal husbandry to get horses and chariots and then run Jao into the ground. I'm behind the others at the moment, but if I manage to run Jao into the ground as well as the Khmer, I'll be golden. Should I settle my fourth settler right there, or should I move it to some place else?

I'll provide a save later on tonight if that's alright.

 

[ShengWuLien]

Nicely done getting Munich settled, that's going to be a great city. Once you've teched Writing, it'll be a sweet spot to build a library and hire a couple of scientist specialists.

Did Joao get the spot with the hill pigs and the floodplains? If it's still open, settle there. If not, you might want to wait and see where iron appears and settle a city that grabs it.

 

[Tycho]

Nicely done getting Munich settled, that's going to be a great city. Once you've teched Writing, it'll be a sweet spot to build a library and hire a couple of scientist specialists.

Did Joao get the spot with the hill pigs and the floodplains? If it's still open, settle there. If not, you might want to wait and see where iron appears and settle a city that grabs it.

He managed to snag the floodplains, but not the pigs (at least not until his border pops). He's got a city about three squares from where the current settler is, I'll just settle on the Floodplains and cottage the heck out of them to try and turn it into a research place. I'l see if I can find iron, but if Jao has it... axemen and chariot rush will be on to get the iron, and the swordsmen.

 

[Saru]

1. CTRL+R

2. The whole purpose of settling new cities is that you benefit more from them than they cost you. That in mind it is extremely important that you have workers ready to improve the newly found city as soon as it is founded. You don't want to invest 100 hammers (on normal speed) on something that will set you back. When you settled your forst city, you instantly start losing money in maintenance. However, you can convert that money into more beakers by setting a a trade network to the newly found city. Tthat way, both your capital and the new city earns 1 bpt from trade routes.

3. Your workers could be doing something better thatn building mines that can't be worked with your current happy cap ('something better', you ask, see above )

4. Apart from most ppl here I would opt against rushing. As TMIT said on his 'the easiest immortal map ever' -video on Youtube, hammers that go on early rushing could be going on workers+settlers+defenses.
By rushing, you may actually suffer more to do it now in my opinion. You have no economical base from where to support your rush. Gosh, you don't even have pottery or writing researched yet! I would grow my economy a bit forst and then attack Joao like with Maces+cats or something like that.

Thanks for reading

 

[Tycho]

1. CTRL+R

2. The whole purpose of settling new cities is that you benefit more from them than they cost you. That in mind it is extremely important that you have workers ready to improve the newly found city as soon as it is founded. You don't want to invest 100 hammers (on normal speed) on something that will set you back. When you settled your forst city, you instantly start losing money in maintenance. However, you can convert that money into more beakers by setting a a trade network to the newly found city. Tthat way, both your capital and the new city earns 1 bpt from trade routes.

3. Your workers could be doing something better thatn building mines that can't be worked with your current happy cap ('something better', you ask, see above )

4. Apart from most ppl here I would opt against rushing. As TMIT said on his 'the easiest immortal map ever' -video on Youtube, hammers that go on early rushing could be going on workers+settlers+defenses.
By rushing, you may actually suffer more to do it now in my opinion. You have no economical base from where to support your rush. Gosh, you don't even have pottery or writing researched yet! I would grow my economy a bit forst and then attack Joao like with Maces+cats or something like that.

Thanks for reading

First off, I want to thank you for posting your belief of what I should do in the game, I love advice .

Alright;

2)Trade network has already been established with Munich, Hamburg, and Berlin. I have workers being created as we speak, and the mines are for hammers in the future, that way turns will not have to be wasted building the mines when the workers could be doing something else. I definitely need to research pottery and writing, but I don't think Jao will be really patient for me to do that.

4)No economic base indeed, though the gold received from capturing cities could support the economy... though I do see what you are saying. Then again, to build a large economy, I would theoretically have to cut down on the maintenance of my cities and build plenty of markets, and snag large commerce generating resources (there is silver farther to the west), as well as cottaging. I definitely need a strong economic base, but that will be a long run idea that won't help me at the moment.

Once again, thank you for listing your ideas Saru, I appreciate your advice.

 

[comet]

I think you need to reconsider either your city placement or tech choices here. You are not only working a lot of unimproved tiles (which is bad), but you are lacking at least 2 techs to fix the situation.

Hamburg: This city isn't very productive for you right now. It's only food is a plains/sheep, which is a kinda weak food resource to begin with, only you don't have the technology to improve it, so it appears you're working an unimproved plains/sheep and a green mine. Right now this city is giving you virtually nothing. It's producing 5 hammers (notice your capital could get 14), growing very slowly, and providing no commerce beyond trade routes and the 1c base.

Munich: This is a decent city site; you have access to two food resources and your BFC will reach 2 hill. The problem is that your best food resource is outside of your borders and you have no way currently of expanding them. Plus, since it's a pig, you need animal husbandry to improve it. So you'll either need to research mysticism, build a monument, then wait 30 turns before you can improve the pig, or get writing then a library. Either way, it's going to be a long time before Munich can work the pigs or the hills. It's good that you got the clams hooked up quickly, but once you grow to 2, you'll be working a plains or grassland forest for a while, which is bad.

4th City: Hasn't been founded yet but it looks like you're going to build it near pigs and a floodplains. Once again, you won't be able to improve your best food resource, though at least you'll have flood plains you could irrigate.

Basically, Berlin is the only productive city for you right now. You are potentially about to build your 4th city, and 3 of them will have pigs or sheep, but you don't have Animal Husbandry yet. AH should have come before Iron Working. Focus on improving your tiles first, then worry about killing Joao. AH can reveal horses anyway, which is just as good for taking out Joao as Iron (although you almost definitely have Iron 1S of your capital). In any case, it's very important to understand that working unimproved tiles is *bad*. This issue is especially evident on Marathon, where the tech rates are kinda funny early on and sometimes it can be difficult to get the necessary technologies before your worker is ready.

Also, since you're playing a non-creative leader and can't rely on religion for culture, you need to either find a way to get that first border pop (mysticism) or plan your cities so they won't need that border pop right away.

One last thing, I don't know how much you use Slavery, but you probably should have already switched to it.

 

[Tycho]

Thank you for your advice Comet, I'll keep it in mind here.

I'll play some more of the game tonight and hopefully box Joao in. Screenshots will be up tomorrow.

 

[CreeDakota]

The preceeding posts by Comet and Saru point to the Lack of Planning that VoUnreason, myself and others were talking about. The first to cites you settled did not have either trade routes or techs/work boats ready to get thier food sources hooked up ASAP. If you had planned for those cities you would have forseen the need for building a workboat for Munichs clams could be worked immediately on founding and Hamburgs Sheep could be pastured immediately on founding.

Imagine something like this thought process:

I want to get enough land to be a big empire and compete with the AI>
Joao is in my way and he settles fast so I cant out Rex him, Joao needs to die>
I didnt get copper for an Axe Rush, so I will need either horses or iron PLUS I need to settle a base of cities with the economy and production to support a war>
I created a Map of planed cities and notice that Animals are in all of them, need to Tech Animal Husbandry sometime soonish so targeting horses before iron makes sense>
My area has good food and production but few rivers or commerce tiles and not the best sites for cottages.....where will my commerce come from? Need to ensure I get traderoutes going and I need either or both of writing for scientist plus maybe an early wonder that gives a tech edge>
My capital is coastal and I can settle 3 other decent coastal cities fast, Perhaps TGLighthouse will solve my early economy issues. I also notice I have marble and am industrious so winning the oracle and/or failgold off of the ToArtemis may get me through to alphabet/CoL/or Currency So I can afford a rush>

Then from there make a plan and remember to review and update it.

 

[vicawoo]

It's not good to pigeonhole yourself into thinking you have to rush someone, especially if he's not that close and if you can block off decent land.

You could have grown your capital to size 5 with a little bit of food, for extra production.

Your capital borders pop at turn 50 (150 marathon), which would have automatically created a coastal trade route to your second city (ironic since you completed the road network on turn 149).

No need to put the chop into the barracks so soon.

I would have gone AH, iron working is very expensive early on, and isn't much faster than getting alphabet and trading for it. Usually you tech it if there's something like jungle gems.

 

[Tycho]

The preceeding posts by Comet and Saru point to the Lack of Planning that VoUnreason, myself and others were talking about. The first to cites you settled did not have either trade routes or techs/work boats ready to get thier food sources hooked up ASAP. If you had planned for those cities you would have forseen the need for building a workboat for Munichs clams could be worked immediately on founding and Hamburgs Sheep could be pastured immediately on founding.

Imagine something like this thought process:

I want to get enough land to be a big empire and compete with the AI>
Joao is in my way and he settles fast so I cant out Rex him, Joao needs to die>
I didnt get copper for an Axe Rush, so I will need either horses or iron PLUS I need to settle a base of cities with the economy and production to support a war>
I created a Map of planed cities and notice that Animals are in all of them, need to Tech Animal Husbandry sometime soonish so targeting horses before iron makes sense>
My area has good food and production but few rivers or commerce tiles and not the best sites for cottages.....where will my commerce come from? Need to ensure I get traderoutes going and I need either or both of writing for scientist plus maybe an early wonder that gives a tech edge>
My capital is coastal and I can settle 3 other decent coastal cities fast, Perhaps TGLighthouse will solve my early economy issues. I also notice I have marble and am industrious so winning the oracle and/or failgold off of the ToArtemis may get me through to alphabet/CoL/or Currency So I can afford a rush>

Then from there make a plan and remember to review and update it.

It's not good to pigeonhole yourself into thinking you have to rush someone, especially if he's not that close and if you can block off decent land.

You could have grown your capital to size 5 with a little bit of food, for extra production.

Your capital borders pop at turn 50 (150 marathon), which would have automatically created a coastal trade route to your second city (ironic since you completed the road network on turn 149).

No need to put the chop into the barracks so soon.

I would have gone AH, iron working is very expensive early on, and isn't much faster than getting alphabet and trading for it. Usually you tech it if there's something like jungle gems.

Understood. I have not gotten a chance to play the game lately, I'll have new screenshots when I am ready.

 

[ShengWuLien]

Just want to second everything CreeDakota said above. The big thing I noticed when I started getting better at the game (and I'm not a great player by any means) is that the early part of the game (say first 100 turns on normal speed, no idea what the equivalent would be on marathon) started to take much longer than it had before.

That's because you're planning where to settle cities, deciding on where various specialized cities might work best, thinking through the right tech path, moving your scout around carefully to check the right parts of the map thoroughly, deciding which tiles to work in each of your cities for maximum advantage, etc.

If it's not too much of a PITA, Tycho, I might suggest that you start a new game and try to do some of these things a bit better. Also, pause the game before you make big decisions--like where and when to settle cities, etc--and let other forum-goers talk it through with you.

If you play a game on normal speed and post a starting save then folks will probably play along, too. Great way to learn.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Hi Tycho.

After finishing the corn and the hill, how many turns did the worker sit around?

Also, why IW?

 

[Tycho]

Just want to second everything CreeDakota said above. The big thing I noticed when I started getting better at the game (and I'm not a great player by any means) is that the early part of the game (say first 100 turns on normal speed, no idea what the equivalent would be on marathon) started to take much longer than it had before.

That's because you're planning where to settle cities, deciding on where various specialized cities might work best, thinking through the right tech path, moving your scout around carefully to check the right parts of the map thoroughly, deciding which tiles to work in each of your cities for maximum advantage, etc.

If it's not too much of a PITA, Tycho, I might suggest that you start a new game and try to do some of these things a bit better. Also, pause the game before you make big decisions--like where and when to settle cities, etc--and let other forum-goers talk it through with you.

If you play a game on normal speed and post a starting save then folks will probably play along, too. Great way to learn.

Hi Tycho.

After finishing the corn and the hill, how many turns did the worker sit around?

Also, why IW?

Thank you for posting here in the thread to give feedback guys, I enjoy it immensely when people provide advice.

@ShengWuLien
Thank you very much for the advice; I'll see how far I can get into the game, and if I lose, I'll definitely start a new thread with a new game at normal speed and play from there. I'm just very used to marathon; when I play mods such as RFC, it tips me off balance because I am used to playing long, massive games.

I definitely should pause, which I try to do when asking for advice on which tech I should go for, or where the next city should be. Before Munich was settled, people had suggested that the area where it is at was a prime spot, so I took it. Now, the settler stuck in the floodplains is there, and I'm wondering what to do with him at the moment.

@MarigoldRan
About a dozen or more; there was not a whole lot for him to do up there when he was there.

Iron Working was suggested by lymond when I was hoping to box in and murder Joao, but that is null and void at the moment. The upside is that I'm the first to have it, and the AIs will probably give me just about anything for that tech if I am careful enough.


Once again, thank you for your feedback fellows, I'll have pictures out by tonight.

 

[Tycho]

And here is the save.

 

[Marcvs Avrelivs]

Ok, opened your save, here are my insights (not an expert by any means though ):

a. 2 animal resources yet no AH, why did you tech Masonry? In my opinion, the marble could've waited (unless if you were going for the Oracle, but obviously, you weren't)
b. I wouldn't recommend settling THAT close to Joao, culture pressure could be too annoying (I know he isn't creative, but still, the site is very close to the capital ) Land to the N and NE looks crap, I advocate settling south, wipe Joao off the map later with Maces and Trebs if need be, I *think* you have horses close by so cuirs could be another prospect
c. Yes, I think this was mentioned a lot of times, but IW wasn't really worth it; you could've devoted the beakers into something more useful like AH or Writing
d. Berlin looks like an excellent Globe city/GP farm, which one you'd like to use, I'd leave it up to you
e. You should be able to get the Great Library and, mixed with Berlin's potential to be a (S)SE powerhouse, should enable you to get to cuirs (or rifles) quickly to dominate your entire continent
I'd actually advocate running a SE instead of pure cottaging since I don't see any decent cottageable land
f. Also noticed you weren't in slavery, I suggest you consider switching
g. For your next set of techs, I'd recommend AH>Writing>Alpha then backfill
I'll play along and post how I get on. If you won't mind, of course

 

[Marcvs Avrelivs]

Alright, here goes:

Spoiler :

I take it you're quite the warmonger since you're so eager to go for an early rush? Well, time to put my warring cap on and see if I can get domination/conquest This being a large map, a military victory could be quite difficult, but then, unlike those Emp-Deity players, I can't achieve a 1750 AD victory on Standard Pangaea maps

We do have iron

Plans for future cities; settler in screenshot was the one about to settle by Joao, had him relocated, grabs corn and could borrow pigs from Munich, also has a couple of hills, I see a future late game production city with all the workshop spam + State Property The other dot plots could be ignored, I don't plan on settling on them for some time

Apparently, we have horses too; knights are another prospect

After Writing, I set slider to 0% to accumulate gold for deficit research and planned to chop/whip libraries in all cities for culture (can't be bothered with myst )

.
Finally, here's Berlin, first scientist out to help with research I decided on timing growth as well so that it grows when the unhappy counter goes 0, in the meanwhile, we'll be investing hammers on the 'mids for switch to representation Nothing much happened within the next few turns, with annoying barbs spawning to the south. Ah well, nothing a good duo of axemen can handle Scouted Joao out a bit; turns out he CAN be rushed, with an archer and warrior in his capital (didn't get a screenie, sorry ) Ended up taking two cities, but had to bypass Oporto since it had 4 archers on it and my attack force (a ragtag bunch of axes and swords lol wasn't enough

Finally! Land you can actually cottage properly

Save attached

 

[Tycho]

Ok, opened your save, here are my insights (not an expert by any means though ):

a. 2 animal resources yet no AH, why did you tech Masonry? In my opinion, the marble could've waited (unless if you were going for the Oracle, but obviously, you weren't)
b. I wouldn't recommend settling THAT close to Joao, culture pressure could be too annoying (I know he isn't creative, but still, the site is very close to the capital ) Land to the N and NE looks crap, I advocate settling south, wipe Joao off the map later with Maces and Trebs if need be, I *think* you have horses close by so cuirs could be another prospect
c. Yes, I think this was mentioned a lot of times, but IW wasn't really worth it; you could've devoted the beakers into something more useful like AH or Writing
d. Berlin looks like an excellent Globe city/GP farm, which one you'd like to use, I'd leave it up to you
e. You should be able to get the Great Library and, mixed with Berlin's potential to be a (S)SE powerhouse, should enable you to get to cuirs (or rifles) quickly to dominate your entire continent
I'd actually advocate running a SE instead of pure cottaging since I don't see any decent cottageable land
f. Also noticed you weren't in slavery, I suggest you consider switching
g. For your next set of techs, I'd recommend AH>Writing>Alpha then backfill
I'll play along and post how I get on. If you won't mind, of course

Alright, here goes:

Spoiler :

I take it you're quite the warmonger since you're so eager to go for an early rush? Well, time to put my warring cap on and see if I can get domination/conquest This being a large map, a military victory could be quite difficult, but then, unlike those Emp-Deity players, I can't achieve a 1750 AD victory on Standard Pangaea maps

We do have iron

Plans for future cities; settler in screenshot was the one about to settle by Joao, had him relocated, grabs corn and could borrow pigs from Munich, also has a couple of hills, I see a future late game production city with all the workshop spam + State Property The other dot plots could be ignored, I don't plan on settling on them for some time

Apparently, we have horses too; knights are another prospect

After Writing, I set slider to 0% to accumulate gold for deficit research and planned to chop/whip libraries in all cities for culture (can't be bothered with myst )

.
Finally, here's Berlin, first scientist out to help with research I decided on timing growth as well so that it grows when the unhappy counter goes 0, in the meanwhile, we'll be investing hammers on the 'mids for switch to representation Nothing much happened within the next few turns, with annoying barbs spawning to the south. Ah well, nothing a good duo of axemen can handle Scouted Joao out a bit; turns out he CAN be rushed, with an archer and warrior in his capital (didn't get a screenie, sorry ) Ended up taking two cities, but had to bypass Oporto since it had 4 archers on it and my attack force (a ragtag bunch of axes and swords lol wasn't enough

Finally! Land you can actually cottage properly

Save attached

First off, as always, thank you for responding Marcvs, . I'm not as much of a warmonger as you might think, I just believed that on higher difficulty levels it was better to run the AI into the ground and then research and build up while the other AIs die off on the other continent.

For your first post, I have some stuff to reply to, if you don't mind.

a. Masonry seemed like a good idea at the time, but it turns out that it wasn't. Sure, I've got the marble and all, but I don't have any more resources like stone or marble near my cities that could be producing hammers.
b. Sounds good to me, I was trying to see if I could pen Joao in and force him into attacking Catherine and swooping in and grabbing his cities while he was away.
c. Iron Working was suggested to try and find iron, but I found none and with no swordsmen, I can't run over Joao.
d. I've never run a specialist economy before; mostly I've either run a pure cottage economy with some specialists and a lot of commerce producing buildings, or I've done agrarian driven civilizations where they use all of their food to expand and get more specialists.
e. Point d already entered that territory, .
f. Will do.
g. Will do so now.

I don't mind if you play along Marcvs, enjoy it!

On point two...

Should I just use the save you have prepared, or should I keep it, look over what you did, try to do it in my own saved game, and compare later on? Or possibly take what you have given me and see how long I go before breaking the save?

Your help is much appreciated Marcvs.