AG12 - Space Race (Sid)
- Thread starter Aggie
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Aggie
Deity
Well, we despertaly need Republic and Currency. I think that markets are priority number one now. We're only 5 turns from Literature and the whole world knows it already. It was a brave but desperate attempt to go that route. We lost 10 turns doing so.
The peace route appears to be more realistic (looking at all the German troops and knowing about the berserks). But 30 more turns to get to Currency is a killer. We can drop the prices by meeting the other 3 civs though.
If we decide to go for that Korean city, then we need to get MA's with Germany and the Vikings AND enough troops to fight an invansion force Sid style.
The peace route appears to be more realistic (looking at all the German troops and knowing about the berserks). But 30 more turns to get to Currency is a killer. We can drop the prices by meeting the other 3 civs though.
If we decide to go for that Korean city, then we need to get MA's with Germany and the Vikings AND enough troops to fight an invansion force Sid style.
Aggie
Deity
Oh...welcome back Greebley 
Here is my thoughts on what we should do:
Get Lit first and then CoL, Philosophy and Republic. After that go for Currency and Construction to get to the next age. We build libraries so this phase goes as quickly as possible.
As we get into the Middle ages, we will have markets. At that point we can switch over to a cash based economy by either stealing or by buying techs.
In the near term though libraries are cheap for us and more important than markets. Republic (and the FP) are the most important of all in terms of getting our economy going.
Get Lit first and then CoL, Philosophy and Republic. After that go for Currency and Construction to get to the next age. We build libraries so this phase goes as quickly as possible.
As we get into the Middle ages, we will have markets. At that point we can switch over to a cash based economy by either stealing or by buying techs.
In the near term though libraries are cheap for us and more important than markets. Republic (and the FP) are the most important of all in terms of getting our economy going.
Aggie
Deity
Imho markets are crucial to make money. Money is needed for trade and steals. Stealing is cheaper than investing in science imho.
Remember steal price depends on the size of the civs. I am fairly sure stealing won't become worthwhile until we get to the middle ages. Libraries job will be to get us there.
Republic is the better choice over Currency. +1 commerce gets us increase in cash like markets instantly without spending the 100 shields.
That is why I think the order should be Republic, then currency with libraries supporting us until then.
The final reason is that I feel we don't want to risk war at this stage of the game. Stealing will require substantially more military than we have now, IMO.
In other words, it will be a while before stealing becomes viable, Libraries will maximize the usefulness as we prepare.
[Edit: Can't we actually check this? Republic is the most expensive Middle Age tech. How many beakers does it cost in Sid on a standard Map? We can compare that to a steal cost. Personally I would pay more for no risk at war (We can have less troops that will mean no troop support when we enter republic).]
Republic is the better choice over Currency. +1 commerce gets us increase in cash like markets instantly without spending the 100 shields.
That is why I think the order should be Republic, then currency with libraries supporting us until then.
The final reason is that I feel we don't want to risk war at this stage of the game. Stealing will require substantially more military than we have now, IMO.
In other words, it will be a while before stealing becomes viable, Libraries will maximize the usefulness as we prepare.
[Edit: Can't we actually check this? Republic is the most expensive Middle Age tech. How many beakers does it cost in Sid on a standard Map? We can compare that to a steal cost. Personally I would pay more for no risk at war (We can have less troops that will mean no troop support when we enter republic).]
Aggie
Deity
Sounds reasonable...
I think the strategy sounds reasonable and we can survive longer but I'm not sure how we win. We are going to need a beaten down trading partner at some point to at least get 2-fers out of steals or self research. If everyone is in the IA by the time we get to republic (at this tech pace quite possible) it's over. This is why I advocated taking on Germany as soon as possible. It would have risked a quick loss but could have positioned as a bit better if it was successful. I guess at this point we have to hope that the AIs go at each other and stalemate and then maybe make up some ground with a well timed GA. Also, we are going to have to instigate wars soon and throughout the game to achieve this goal. We just are not going to have a chance peacefully trying to dig out of this hole IMHO.
Aggie
Deity
There is a lot of truth in your reasoning Mark1031. But I saw the German troops and we simply haven't got a chance there. And the Vikings with berserks is also out of the question. Korea and Babylon ARE possible targets though, but imho only with MA's.
Yes, of course I haven't seen the German troop movements. Haven't the Vikes taken them down a bit. I guess we haven't got that many options. I think Korea is really just for a GA trigger as I don't see that it gains us much. It certainly wouldn't beat Korea down very much to take one or two cities. We could put a bunch of spears and archers with immortal backup in a fortress on the iron hill, pillage the road leading up to it on the German side and hope they gas themselves on our spears. This assumes of course that they still have only horses and swords and that we have the Vikings signed up. Oh well it looks like we're going the peaceful route anyway, we shall see.
betazed
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I do not want to sound pessimistic, and I will be the last person to give up (I almost always take a game to its bitter end - the AI has to yank the sword from my dead clenched hands before it declares a win) but IMHO, this game looks like a loser if the AI gets to IA before we get to Middle Ages. But no qualms there; we learnt a lot from this game.
We learnt the importance of Alphabet!
Inspite of that I would say let's continue with the original plan that we had (and not just because of the massive amount of troops that the AI can throw at you on Sid). A passive/scientific approach that we decided on at the beginning of the game. Let's see how far we can go!
We learnt the importance of Alphabet!
Inspite of that I would say let's continue with the original plan that we had (and not just because of the massive amount of troops that the AI can throw at you on Sid). A passive/scientific approach that we decided on at the beginning of the game. Let's see how far we can go!
Aggie
Deity
I fully agree with betazed I know that we all -deep in our hearts- want to fight the Germans to gain some territory and wear them down. But that won't be possible for a long time. We would need at least 30 immortals imvho. I'm torn between an almost impossible peaceful road and an almost impossible war road
I know that we all -deep in our hearts- want to fight the Germans to gain some territory and wear them down. But that won't be possible for a long time. We would need at least 30 immortals imvho. I'm torn between an almost impossible peaceful road and an almost impossible war road 
I think Greebley has the right idea. There's no way we can defeat the Germans, and they were in the Ancient age not too long ago, so we can trade with them once we get into the Middle ages. Plus, if the AIs *just* got literature, that means they haven't built any unis yet. If we build libraries in all our major cities (and even minor ones if they have nothing better to build), build the FP and get into republic, we might have a chance of catching up. Also, are you sure we want to run all cash once we get into the Middle Ages? Remember, we're scientific and Universities come before Banks. If we research Monotheism, Theology and Education, we can build cheap universities and might have a chance at catching up (since the AI wouldn't be that far ahead of us in University production thanks to their ignoring of Literature). 100% bonus in research is better than 50% bonus in cash, which the AIs can extort.
Also, I've read somewhere (I think in Cuban Iceolationists?) that the cost to buy is 1/2 the cost, relative to researching. Does this still hold true? If so, we may want to buy once we build markets.
Once again, sorry for ruining our reputation
. I should have known not to trust that trade route, I was hopeful that we could resell it every 20 turns to catch up (I wanted to sell to Germany, but they already have spices).
BTW, as long as Germany is at war with the Vikings, we can trade for techs with them.
Also, I've read somewhere (I think in Cuban Iceolationists?) that the cost to buy is 1/2 the cost, relative to researching. Does this still hold true? If so, we may want to buy once we build markets.
Once again, sorry for ruining our reputation
. I should have known not to trust that trade route, I was hopeful that we could resell it every 20 turns to catch up (I wanted to sell to Germany, but they already have spices).BTW, as long as Germany is at war with the Vikings, we can trade for techs with them.
If we get up courthouses and libraries and into republic I guess we might be able to catch up a bit researching @ last. I'v played a few Sid games but never seen this level of tech race. It's really unbeliveable. In MM1 I went 10 turns without a single AI tech advance. Go figure.
Aggie
Deity
The issue is not the tech pace. It is not uncommon these days to be in the middle ages at turn 75. Especially with a couple of scientific civs. We are now at 110. The biggest problem is that we can't take part in the tech brokering. The prices are so high on Sid.
I am not yet pessimistic. We haven't gotten our economy up and running; we don't know yet if an assault to take the Great Library is possible; An AI may fall behind to give us a leg up, etc.
We are researching at last place and so have that benefit to offset some of the SID costs (it would be nice to meet the last civs before we complete republic). We have a nice number of cities that right now are tiny, but will not remain tiny.
Now if the AI reaches the modern age and we have barely gotten out of the ancient and can't get to the GLib - At that point I will be officially worried
We are researching at last place and so have that benefit to offset some of the SID costs (it would be nice to meet the last civs before we complete republic). We have a nice number of cities that right now are tiny, but will not remain tiny.
Now if the AI reaches the modern age and we have barely gotten out of the ancient and can't get to the GLib - At that point I will be officially worried
betazed
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350 BC: Settle Istakhar. I make a suicide run with a curragh and see the incas on a mountain.
IBT: The babs are at war with Korea! And how many trrops does the germans have! I count at least a hundred in our territory. Germans take Alesund.
330 BC: Nothing much.
IBT: Vikings are definitely in GA because I saw a berzerker take out a sword. We learn Lit one turn before for some reason.
310 BC: Contact the Ottos. They have landed a settler on our continent. Start Philosophy at -7gpt.
IBT: Germany wants 21G. Ach! Obviously I concede. That means I have to cut down research for at least two turns to make up some money.
290 BC: Stop research to gain some money.
IBT: The babs are building copernicus.
250 BC: Our worker cannot even move because it is surronded by german troops. Start research again.
230 BC: Nothing much. Otto has 2904G in his treasury. All other civs have less than 100. We do have a runaway AI!
IBT: Otto finishes Copernicus! Now how many wonders has he got till now?
It looks like Germany really has very fertile lands.
IBT: Vikings take Salzburg by amphibious attack. Babylon kicks out out.
190 BC: zzz
170 BC: We contact the Aztecs! Of course they know everything
IBT: We get Philo. I turn off research to get some money.
150 BC:
IBT: Otto is building Js Bach. Vikings are building Magellan!
130 BC: zzz
FP finishes next turn. We should get a boost of income and should start full on CoL. Well at least we met both the remaining civs.
IBT: The babs are at war with Korea! And how many trrops does the germans have! I count at least a hundred in our territory. Germans take Alesund.
330 BC: Nothing much.
IBT: Vikings are definitely in GA because I saw a berzerker take out a sword. We learn Lit one turn before for some reason.
310 BC: Contact the Ottos. They have landed a settler on our continent. Start Philosophy at -7gpt.
IBT: Germany wants 21G. Ach! Obviously I concede. That means I have to cut down research for at least two turns to make up some money.
290 BC: Stop research to gain some money.
IBT: The babs are building copernicus.
250 BC: Our worker cannot even move because it is surronded by german troops.
Start research again. 230 BC: Nothing much. Otto has 2904G in his treasury. All other civs have less than 100. We do have a runaway AI!
IBT: Otto finishes Copernicus! Now how many wonders has he got till now?
It looks like Germany really has very fertile lands. IBT: Vikings take Salzburg by amphibious attack. Babylon kicks out out.
190 BC: zzz
170 BC: We contact the Aztecs! Of course they know everything
IBT: We get Philo. I turn off research to get some money.
150 BC:
IBT: Otto is building Js Bach. Vikings are building Magellan!
130 BC: zzz
FP finishes next turn. We should get a boost of income and should start full on CoL. Well at least we met both the remaining civs.
Good turns. With Libraries coming in (and markets a little later), we'll be able to slowly catch up. Once we get up to Otto's level (van Bismark that is. I was confused when you called the Ottomans a runaway AI b/c I thought you were talking about Germany 
), we'll hopefully be able to catch up faster through trading. BTW, is he in the MA yet? If we both enter the MA and get different techs (especially if we get Feudalism), it could help us out a lot. Good job on finding the last 2 AI too. That should help us out tremendously in our research and buy prices. What age are they in? Are the Incans still Ancient, and are the Mayans on the same level as the other AIs (as far as we can tell by wonder building)?Edit: BTW, why is Samarra building a temple? Has it already built a library?
BTW, we may consider building Immortals in our core to transfer shields to 1 shield cities. We have no use for military (if we're attacked by Germany or Vikings, we're dead no matter what) and the cities that have completed Libraries have nothing to build till Currency (and CoL, if corruption is significant).
