AG8 - Let's try Sid

[Aggie]

Nad, you convinced me that we should carry on. It's just a game and if we shouldn't win this we can always start a new one. This rep issue is a biggie, but for now let's focus on the war.

I am with anarres and like to see us hurt the Indians as much as we can. 40 MW's should do the trick. But now we should also remember to leave them a city, and get technologies out of the war.

And let's replace the cities with thos of our own.

I guess we have to trade techs for gold sums. I don't know how real this is.

 

[Offa]

Sorry to delurk again but I find your game very interesting.

You certainly seem to take your reputation very seriously. Does it really make that much difference, apart from making gpt deals harder/impossible ? Does it make deals more expensive?

I assume that talk of giving up now was meant as a joke, given your great position.

 

[anarres]

One thing - we MUST keep India alive now!!!!!!!!

Even it's one city on our NE coast we MUST have them in the game or we will NEVER make a GPT deal outside of peace treaties again!

This way we can make war with India and then get MA's against them and get GPT with the civs at war with India.

All is not lost.

 

[Nad]

Offa: a tarnished rep from a broken deal makes buying techs for gpt impossible, unless it is part of a peace treaty or a civ is at war with the civ we have wronged (in this case Sumeria).

Since buying techs is more or less the only way to advance at higher levels (IIRC we have a 100% research penalty at Sid!) and buying on credit to broker is about the only way of purchasing techs, the issue is extremely serious, critical even.

 

[Nad]

Annares: it is NOT India that we have ripped off, it is SUMERIA! We have to keep Sumeria alive at all costs so that civs can fight tghem and accept credit from us.

Nevertheless, we do want to keep India alive to extort them for techs, keep a buffer state, and as a future research partner.

EDIT: Aggie, below: Great minds and all that!!

 

[Aggie]

anarres, don't you mean Sumeria? We broke a trade deal with them, so we should keep them alive the way you describe?

Keeping India alive also is important. We can declare war on them and maybe get a tech out of them for peace and gpt.

EDIT: cross posted with Nad. But we have the same idea

 

[anarres]

Umm, yeah.

Well, I had the idea too, but the bump on my head must still be affecting me.

 

[TedJackson]

OK,

I'll finish up later today.


Ted

 

[Greebley]

I also think we should continue and not replay. We can renegotiate for peace if need be or save cash and buy straight up so we are not by any means dead.

It does make me think we may want to play a more agressive game. Getting to a large size really helps and also allows us to war for techs. Not sure how practical this is (it depends on how far behind we are)

I would try to get some tech from the war with India if we can.

 

[Yndy]

lurker's comment:
Guys, you have checked the other Sid games haven’t you? My conclusion is that stealing is the most important way to get new techs, from Middle Ages onward. It seems more effective than paying gpt. You also need the ability to defend with that but you’re doing that pretty good by now.

 

[Aggie]

Yndy, thanks for reminding us

 

[TedJackson]

Sorry for the delay,

RL got in the way yesterday so I'll finish off today.


Ted

 

[Greebley]

This is a bit off topic, but I have been wondering about the cash vs research. It seems the cost of both buying and research goes up as you go up difficulty levels. Does the buying cost go up less than the research cost (so the cost per beaker goes down?)

Agreed that stealing becomes a good option. The stealing cost seems to be based on the size/power(/culture?) of the AI and not on diff level. I keep forgetting that we can steal before we have an embassy. Not sure why I keep forgetting that as an option, so a thanks for the reminder Yndy.

 

[Nad]

Stealing techs would be another good reason to keep India alive...we could steal without too much fear of reprisals .

However, I doubt stealing techs will really become a valid option until the industrial age and spies. Buying and brokering will likely remain the preferred option until steal costs are significantly cheaper than @6th or lower purchase costs.

My guidleine for stealing is that we must be prepared to accept war if we fail. If we don't think we could cope with war, we should try to avoid stealing...

 

[T-hawk]

If a tech costs 1000 beakers to research on Regent, it will cost 1000*10/9 = 1111 beakers on Monarch, 1000*10/8 = 1250 beakers on Emperor, 1428 on Demigod, 1667 on Deity, and 1000*10/4 = 2500 on Sid.

The buying cost per beaker is essentially the same on every difficulty. There is a small modifier which increases with difficulty, from 100% on Chieftain up to 120% on Deity (I'm not sure what it is on Sid.) This modifier is affected to a very small degree (1-2%) by a few other factors as well, including the AI's attitude, culture groupings, and aggression level. This isn't exposed in the editor; it's hardcoded internally.

Steal cost does not go up with difficulty, and yes it is based on the size/power of your rival. I think it's mostly, if not entirely, based on the total amount of tech that the opponent has.

 

[Nad]

I did not know that the research copst difference between deity and Sid was so great! From 1667 to 2500?!

I think the conclusion is that brokering and stealing are still very possible at Sid but research isn't?

Although the actual steal cost might be similar at Sid, the failure cost is much higher...from the games I've seen, Sid AIs tend to run out of buildings to build very quickly and then just build huge stacks of units...

 

[T-hawk]

Yep. The difference in tech cost between Sid and Deity, is higher than the difference between Deity and Regent!

Stealing is very possible on Sid, of course, because the cost isn't increased. Research isn't viable, although 50-turn minimum research in selected spots certainly is.

Brokering is possible, because of this: the increase in tech cost also applies when you're *selling* a tech. Suppose again a tech that costs 1000 gold to buy on Regent; it'll cost 2500 (ignoring the extra modifier) on Sid. If you then *resell* the tech, you'll still get 2500 in trade value for it, not 1000.

IOW, effectively, once you manage to get a tech, you can broker it for another tech without paying the high-difficulty tech cost penalty. (Strictly speaking, the cost penalty comes on both sides of the deal so it effectively cancels out, except for the additional 20% modifier.) THAT's why brokering is so, so critical on high difficulty.

 

[Greebley]

Thanks THawk! Your post is very useful.

One interesting thing is that if you are so far behind that no brokering is possible, then research tech is actually slightly faster than buying tecj assuming you have both Markets and Libraries.

 

[Aggie]

Ted, how is it going?

 

[T-hawk]

One interesting thing is that if you are so far behind that no brokering is possible, then research tech is actually slightly faster than buying tecj assuming you have both Markets and Libraries.

Researching is slightly cheaper than buying, yes; and more than slightly cheaper if it's a tech with a trade-cost multiplier, like a government tech or Nationalism. But there's an important advantage for purchasing: you can buy on credit, using future income. Would you rather spend 20 turns researching Republic, or pay a bit more in gold-per-turn to get into Republic 20 turns sooner?