Agg, Cha, Spi & UU Drafting

[kniteowl]

I want to know what's the best method of using the draft??? I've reed a few games that use Nationhood and drafting quite efficently.

I generally use the draft Alot during the Early and Mid Industrial Ages especially when I have a UU that I can Draft Eg- French Musketeers, Ottomen Janissaries and English RedCoats

When you Swicth Civics you usually Siwtch to Nationhood and Theology at the same time.

Agg and Cha Civs are Civs to use the Draft as they can get to their 2nd Promotions Instantly (If you include Barracks and Theology)

I bet ALOT Of People Draft ALOT with Toku... LOL

Prot Civs Are Great Drafters When your on the defense especially when you've recently conquered a city near your broader, Jus draft a couple of gun-power units (eg- Muskets or rifles) from nearby Cities and you've got defender in your captured cities with automatic CG1 (CG2 with thelogy and/or barracks) so you don't have to leaver any units in your raiding party behind in order to continue the Attack. Therefore you can worry less about counter attacks.

I generally Use Spi Civs switching to nationhood when I'm in Trouble or need to have a Quick War.

Between Churchill and Toku who'd be the better at using the Draft? (Id probably lean more to Churchill having a UU)

Has Anyone Gone for Early Nationalism to Draft Samurai & Beserkers?

LOL nevermind I just like any Ideas, Suggestions & Strageties for the effective Drafting.

 

[cabert]

drafting is strong for riflemen
they cost exactly 1 pop.
If you draft musketeers, it's one pop too, but you have a lower unit.
If you draft infantry it's 2 pops.

SO
you want to draft riflemen.

I could see the use of drafting macemen, but that's really a short time span, when you go the liberalism way, choose nationalism as free tech and don't have gunpowder yet.

 

[kniteowl]

drafting is strong for riflemen
they cost exactly 1 pop.
If you draft musketeers, it's one pop too, but you have a lower unit.
If you draft infantry it's 2 pops.

SO
you want to draft riflemen.

I could see the use of drafting macemen, but that's really a short time span, when you go the liberalism way, choose nationalism as free tech and don't have gunpowder yet.

WHAT ABOUT THE Janissaries??? Havn't played as the Otomens yet but they sound very good on paper. +25% melee, archery & Mounted Units, that's basically every Middle age unit in the game.

And Drafting ALOT of those outta no-where sounds good but but Muskets always have a short time span epscially on normal speed.

Those guys would be pillaging monsters becuase they have no Counter untill the AI gets Gunpowder with Promoted Muskets with Pinch if not then untill Chemistry or Rifling.

 

[cabert]

musketmen (and the UUs based on them) are not strong enough to beat down units of the time without good promotions + they don't get good promotions (no CR for them!) + draftees are low on XP.

You cannot rely on a drafted army of muskets IMHO (even janissaries) to conquer anything. Pillaging? why not but i won't leave bureaucracy just for pillaging at the cost of population

 

[UncleJJ]

I want to know what's the best method of using the draft??? I've reed a few games that use Nationhood and drafting quite efficently.

I generally use the draft Alot during the Early and Mid Industrial Ages especially when I have a UU that I can Draft Eg- French Musketeers, Ottomen Janissaries and English RedCoats

When you Swicth Civics you usually Siwtch to Nationhood and Theology at the same time.

Agg and Cha Civs are Civs to use the Draft as they can get to their 2nd Promotions Instantly (If you include Barracks and Theology)

I bet ALOT Of People Draft ALOT with Toku... LOL

Prot Civs Are Great Drafters When your on the defense especially when you've recently conquered a city near your broader, Jus draft a couple of gun-power units (eg- Muskets or rifles) from nearby Cities and you've got defender in your captured cities with automatic CG1 (CG2 with thelogy and/or barracks) so you don't have to leaver any units in your raiding party behind in order to continue the Attack. Therefore you can worry less about counter attacks.

I generally Use Spi Civs switching to nationhood when I'm in Trouble or need to have a Quick War.

Between Churchill and Toku who'd be the better at using the Draft? (Id probably lean more to Churchill having a UU)

Has Anyone Gone for Early Nationalism to Draft Samurai & Beserkers?

LOL nevermind I just like any Ideas, Suggestions & Strageties for the effective Drafting.

You seem to be forgetting that drafted troops only get half the experience a normal troop would get. Therefore you effectively need 4 exp (halved to 2) for an initial promotion. In Warlords a barracks gives 3 exp, so you need barracks AND theology to get just one initial promotion when you draft. An agressive civ would get the free combat but a charimatic civ needs another 2 exp from somewhere.

Also gunpowder units can't get the drill part of the protective free upgrade only archers (of the upgradeable troops get that) So churchill's Redcoats only get 1 promotion (barracks and theology) and a free CG. Nice but not overwhelming.

 

[cabert]

So churchill's Redcoats only get 1 promotion (barracks and theology) and a free CG. Nice but not overwhelming.

they get a free drill 1 promotion too.
Still not overwhelming, but a little better.

 

[UncleJJ]

they get a free drill 1 promotion too.
Still not overwhelming, but a little better.

I don't think they get drill, the civilopeadia definitely says only archery units get the drill promotion and hence only those would get that part of the Protective trait (units only get free promotions if they are eligible for them). If you want a redcoat with drill you have to upgrade an archery unit. Incidently, I haven't actually played Churchill yet, so this is just what happens in theory and I'd be very interested if it turns out I'm wrong.

 

[aelf]

musketmen (and the UUs based on them) are not strong enough to beat down units of the time without good promotions + they don't get good promotions (no CR for them!) + draftees are low on XP.

You cannot rely on a drafted army of muskets IMHO (even janissaries) to conquer anything. Pillaging? why not but i won't leave bureaucracy just for pillaging at the cost of population

I disagree. I've drafted Musketeers and Jannisaries and put them to good use. Musketeers are effective at pillaging, stack protection, cleanup and defense (especially in cities you just conquered during the turn). Having a dozen Musketeers around for support is very handy when you are fighting an extended campaign with your CR maces. If you don't draft them, you might not have enough.

Jannisaries are all about getting to Gunpowder first. Watch them tear through medieval armies. Drafting them helps you get enough of them to do the job when they are most effective.

To me, musket UUs are expendable. Who cares if they don't get a lot of promotions? They serve a particular purpose at a particular time and that's it. It's good enough if they help me win a war or two better. By the time you get Nationalism it's almost time to abandon Bureaucracy and switch to Free Speech anyway. Think of Nationhood as a stopover.

 

[cabert]

I disagree. I've drafted Musketeers and Jannisaries and put them to good use. Musketeers are effective at pillaging, stack protection, cleanup and defense (especially in cities you just conquered during the turn). Having a dozen Musketeers around for support is very handy when you are fighting an extended campaign with your CR maces. If you don't draft them, you might not have enough.

Jannisaries are all about getting to Gunpowder first. Watch them tear through medieval armies. Drafting them helps you get enough of them to do the job when they are most effective.

To me, musket UUs are expendable. Who cares if they don't get a lot of promotions? They serve a particular purpose at a particular time and that's it. It's good enough if they help me win a war or two better. By the time you get Nationalism it's almost time to abandon Bureaucracy and switch to Free Speech anyway. Think of Nationhood as a stopover.

How on earth to you expect to have both nationhood and gunpowder soon enough to do anything with musketUU? I go pretty soon for gunpowder and have musketmen in many cities, but then i don't have nationalism.
Maybe it's because i go for liberalism?

 

[cabert]

I don't think they get drill, the civilopeadia definitely says only archery units get the drill promotion and hence only those would get that part of the Protective trait (units only get free promotions if they are eligible for them). If you want a redcoat with drill you have to upgrade an archery unit. Incidently, I haven't actually played Churchill yet, so this is just what happens in theory and I'd be very interested if it turns out I'm wrong.

i played churchill and can tell you the redcoats (and grenadiers,...) all have the drill I for free.
You still cannot get drill II, III ... unless you promote an archery unit.

 

[UncleJJ]

How on earth to you expect to have both nationhood and gunpowder soon enough to do anything with musketUU? I go pretty soon for gunpowder and have musketmen in many cities, but then i don't have nationalism.
Maybe it's because i go for liberalism?

It is easy to combine an early drafting strategy with the Liberalism race. Take Nationalism as the free tech and research Gunpowder (circa 1760 beakers normal speed game) as Education is one of its prerequisites.

i played churchill and can tell you the redcoats (and grenadiers,...) all have the drill I for free.
You still cannot get drill II, III ... unless you promote an archery unit.

Thanks, that is interesting and seems different from how the free medic promotion from Red Cross is treated (e.g. tanks don't get medic)

 

[cabert]

It is easy to combine an early drafting strategy with the Liberalism race. Take Nationalism as the free tech and research Gunpowder (circa 1760 beakers normal speed game) as Education is one of its prerequisites.

that's what i do very often, but then you face gunpowder unit very soon (you researched it the normal way = you're not a lot ahead of AIs at best).
Janissaries are (so it seems, never tried) good vs medieval units. If I go liberalism, free nationalism, gunpowder, +revolt to nationhood, i often face gunpowder (or must attack the weaker civs, which isn't going to win a game : I could have attacked those before with maces)

Let me state it the other way around : if I go straight to gunpowder (or liberalism + gunpowder as free tech), i can have a bunch of muskets a lot earlier than what i'll be able to draft researching gunpowder AND nationalism + i'll revolt to free speech (and free religion probably) directly, no nation needed there.

 

[aelf]

I agree with UncleJJ. In fact, I find an interesting synergy in going the Education path, grabbing Nationalism with Liberalism and then researching Gunpowder to draft musket UUs. When I attack my target (even a relatively strong one) with CR maces and Musketeers or massed Janissaries, he/she does not usually have Gunpowder yet because I research Education asap. Even if they have a couple of muskets when I'm attacking with Janissaries, so what? They can't upgrade medieval units to muskets and they have tons of the former. And Musketeers aren't really affected by the presence of enemy muskets.

Anyway, this strategy is followed by a quick beeline to MT (which you can research immediately if you have Music). A follow up campaign with early cavalry = dead enemies.

 

[Wodan]

musketmen (and the UUs based on them) are not strong enough to beat down units of the time without good promotions + they don't get good promotions (no CR for them!) + draftees are low on XP.

You cannot rely on a drafted army of muskets IMHO (even janissaries) to conquer anything. Pillaging? why not but i won't leave bureaucracy just for pillaging at the cost of population

I disagree as well. Yes, draftees are low on promotions (at least initially). However, it's also true that "units of the time" do not have effective promotions against them either.

IMO draftees are best used as the bulk of your army. They soak up the initial surges of opposing units.

You're still going to have built units, and those guys are the ones you're giving CR1, CR2, and CR3 to. Meanwhile, a single Combat promotion or two will make the draftees to be selected as defending units against counterattacks, preserving your CR units for city taking.

So, to me, draftee army makes up a stack or two to invade, plus a slew of pillagers if pillaging is warranted (and if not, then simply to sit on opponent's resources to deny it to him until I take the city). Followed in a turn or two by my real stack, with CR units plus a couple of defender units.

Wodan

 

[Landmonitor]

I've never used nationhood; I prefer bureacracy or vassalage, depending on whether I'm wondering or warring. I only play on monarch though, so maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that unless you have SEVERE hapiness issues, nationhood is a poor civic choice because the draft undermines your economy and only provides you with weak, inexperienced soldiers. Also, I tend to run a production-heavy empire in general (I'm typically 1st in manufactured goods if I'm 1st in anything), so getting units in the field isn't usually a problem.

Anyway, interesting thoughts here, especially the optimization of drafting at the point of riflemen. Good to know.

 

[aelf]

"weak, inexprerienced soldiers" have been addressed in different ways in posts above. And I must say that the +2 happiness from barracks is quite a big happiness boost. It's just a question of whether +2 gold from each town and +100% culture (Free Speech) is better than that and drafting. An SE can make use of Nationhood very well, providing extra population (more specialists) and a potentially stronger military.

 

[Landmonitor]

I saw the arguments against the weakness of the soldiers above, and perhaps the extra happiness would come in particularly handy in long wars (when, unfortunately for nationhood, vassalage also becomes a choice civic). However, to me it remains that unless you have cities with very high levels of food resources, overworking the draft will undermine your war-making ability in the long run by depopulating your cities, which will slow down research and normal production.

Additionally, I don't see how "An SE can make use of Nationhood very well, providing extra population (more specialists) and a potentially stronger military," unless you are referring specifically to the hapiness boost, in which case, the SE would benefit from this. However, like slavery, nationhood allows it's (in my view) primary benefit through depopulation, which is fundamentally opposed to one of the basic ideas of the SE (that being keeping cities at the highest possible level of population).

However, there is one point of ignorance that my answers are based on, and which someone could perhaps answer:

Does the draft cause unhapiness? I don't know because I've never used it.

Also, there is another caveat that applies to all my answers: there is no single unified strategy that will always work in Civ IV. If there was, it wouldn't be game of the year and it wouldn't be so damn interesting to talk about. This means that in some cases, I would use nationhood, but none of those cases have as yet arisen for me.

This could be partially because I would always prefer a more experienced but smaller military, and therefore vassalage becomes more attractive than nationhood in the majority of cases.

Anyway, interesting discussion.

 

[kniteowl]

Additionally, I don't see how "An SE can make use of Nationhood very well, providing extra population (more specialists) and a potentially stronger military," unless you are referring specifically to the hapiness boost, in which case, the SE would benefit from this. However, like slavery, nationhood allows it's (in my view) primary benefit through depopulation, which is fundamentally opposed to one of the basic ideas of the SE (that being keeping cities at the highest possible level of population).

However, there is one point of ignorance that my answers are based on, and which someone could perhaps answer:

Does the draft cause unhapiness? I don't know because I've never used it.

Anyway, interesting discussion.

Yes Drafting Decreases 1 pop, 2pop for infantry ( & so on Etc) and causes -3 Unhappiness, There is a way to combat this, get a Food Surplus City over the 6pop limit build a Ganary and Globe Theater (No Unhappiness EVER) and you can draft 1 Soilder from that City every turn forever as long as you can recover your pop & your over the 6 pop limit.

Well that's What I do in my Specialist Eco Games, Of Course I also have a priest production city for the production of my Experienced units.

But If I need Quick units for a Quick War I go for Drafting in combination with my previous verteran Units (CR1,2,3 Swords/Maces)

9 Cities in 3 turn can get you 9 Units Instantatiously... I don't see the down side apart from the unhappiness.(1 pop per city isn't a major Prob I can recover it relatively easily and I'd trade 1 pop to conquer a new City any time)

If I have 15 Cities which usually Optimal for me, I can Switch to Nationhood and Switch back after Drafting 15 units without any major unhappiness problems, declare War and Enter Enemy Terrortory and Save some Gold in the treasury at the same time.

I have enough units to easier conquer 2 cities in combination with cats/trebs/cannons even if they have very few promotions although I usually go for Rifles and Nationhood relatively early as a beeline to knock out my backward rivals.

I generally Draft the Cities Furthest from my Enenmy Target First So I can Organise my army on the Broader Quciker.

 

[Landmonitor]

That is a very convincing rundown of how to use the draft, kniteowl. I'll put that in my pocket for future Civ games. That could be especially handy with a spiritual Civ in a game against humans, where surprise is essential.

The idea of Globe Theatreing a food-heavy city for drafting is appealing and is clearly more pop-economic than slavery.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

if you draft do you get experience, because whenever i draft my unit hs no experience whatsoever