Agg, Cha, Spi & UU Drafting

[kniteowl]

if you draft do you get experience, because whenever i draft my unit hs no experience whatsoever

Yes you get half the experience compared to a normally produced Soilder.

Eg - instead of getting 6xp by producing a Unit normally (Barracks and Theology In Civ 4 vinilla) you get a unit from the same city if you draft it with only 3xp

 

[aelf]

Concerns about depopulation is not really valid. Drafting costs only one population. Like kniteowl has pointed out, it is effective in creating an offensive army if you have enough cities. It is also able to create defensive armies very quickly in times of need. The factor here is number of cities you can draft in (>6 pop). If you have enough, you don't need to draft more than once in each city for a war.

If you can whip during the earlier stages of an SE, I don't see why sacrificing one pop per city for so much gain in military strength is so painful. The potentially crippling thing is the temporary unhappiness caused by drafting (quite a lot at +3) so you must plan carefully or be prepared for it. And the reason why I said the SE can make use of the draft is because there are few towns and villages in an SE to benefit from Free Speech (the only other civic I would consider adopting permanently at this point). The +2 from baracks is a free source of happiness. 2 more population in every city can mean 2 more specialists empire-wide. Combined with Representation, the effects are nothing to be trifled with.

Like you said, there are many different ways to play the game. I'm just explaining one good way of pursuing the SE in a later part of the game.

 

[flamingzaroc121]

oh okay, thx for the info, i wasnt running theocracy at the time so thats why i didnt get a promotion. with a Cha leader wouldnt you get the same nuber of promotions, because the amount required is in half, and the amount you get is in half?????

 

[Landmonitor]

Cha allows you to level at 25% lower XP, it doesn't half the amount of XP you need, and you would still get half of what your built units get.

Thank you Aelf for the good points. I'm going to bear the possibility of a good draft in mind from now on, SE or not.

 

[kniteowl]

oh okay, thx for the info, i wasnt running theocracy at the time so thats why i didnt get a promotion. with a Cha leader wouldnt you get the same nuber of promotions, because the amount required is in half, and the amount you get is in half?????

Charismatic
+1 happiness per city
-25% XP needed for unit promotions
+1 happiness from Monument, Broadcast Tower

It's Not half you need 25% less experience per unit to gain a promotion under a Charismatice Leader

Example

Normal Leader Units - 2XP 5XP Etc....
Charismatic Leader Units - 2XP 4XP Etc....

 

[cabert]

The good traits for drafting are clearly the one giving you free promotions, since they not no XPs at all :
- while under nationhood you cannot use vassalage = less XP
- you get only half the XP you'd get usually = less XP.

So a tokugawa drafted rifleman is stronger than a charismatic rifleman (except the charismatic + protective one is churchill, and there you have a really cool redcoat ).

I can use the 5 turns/15 units trick if I'm spiritual. But If I'm not, I won't go into anarchy for 15 unexperienced units. I just lose too much.

 

[aelf]

I can use the 5 turns/15 units trick if I'm spiritual. But If I'm not, I won't go into anarchy for 15 unexperienced units. I just lose too much.

Not necessarily true. Military gains may trump whatever you gain from a few turns less of anarchy. If you're playing Toku, for example, drafting rilemen that benefit from both the Aggressive and Protective traits for 1 pop each is too good to pass up. More land and more enemies dead = more likely to be a winning game.

 

[cabert]

Not necessarily true. Military gains may trump whatever you gain from a few turns less of anarchy. If you're playing Toku, for example, drafting rilemen that benefit from both the Aggressive and Protective traits for 1 pop each is too good to pass up. More land and more enemies dead = more likely to be a winning game.

I was still on the musket thing.
Drafting riflemen is optimal, IMHO, since it's the highest value unit you can draft for 1 pop.That's something I do quite often.

edit :
to quickly sketch how a game would go at this time for me:
* Liberalism>free nationalism, revolt to free speech, free religion. If war, it's mace and cats.
* tech to gunpowder, I build some muskets for stack/city defense + usable to kill some not too good units = capture a city.
* tech to chemistry, mace become grenadiers
* tech to astronomy, gallions + frigates + grenadiers + catapults take over anything I want
(.... some things happen, including globe theater in a high food ex capital city i captured)
* tech to replaceable parts>rifling , nationood drafting riflemen
* tech to steel, cannons become my main assault unit, so free speech is back (riflemen don't rule the world anymore)

 

[aelf]

Let me suggest an alternative sequence of events. Assume I'm playing Napoleon.

- Burn a GS on Education to get it asap
- Liberalism = Nationalism, revolt to Nationhood (and Free Religion, if not benefiting from Theocracy) at the right time
- Research Gunpowder
- War: use trebs/cats and experienced CR maces as main army and built/drafted Musketeers as support (stack protection, pillaging, quick city defense and cleanup)
- Trade for Music (could be done earlier), research MT after Gunpowder and start building cavalry en masse
- Follow up campaign or start another one with Flanking cavalry and experienced Musketeers. They can take some cities defended by longbows/muskets by themselves
- Tech to Rifling and draft rilfes or just switch to Free Speech if extensive campaigns are no longer needed (eg. if you are already on the point of conquering all of your continent)

Doable on Emperor, especially if you build the Great Library.

 

[cabert]

Let me suggest an alternative sequence of events. Assume I'm playing Napoleon.
- Liberalism = Nationalism, revolt to Nationhood (and Free Religion, if not benefiting from Theocracy) at the right time
- Research Gunpowder

why would you go to nationhood before even having gunpowder?
bureaucracy and free speech help you tech to the later techs. That's why I stick with them until I need to focus on leveraging an advantage (15 riflemen in 5 turns is enough of an advantage to clear the continent, often)

 

[aelf]

- Liberalism = Nationalism, revolt to Nationhood (and Free Religion, if not benefiting from Theocracy) at the right time

Anyway, Free Speech presupposes quite a few villages and towns, which you may not have at the moment, and Bureaucracy is no longer that attractive when your empire gets bigger. Conquering your continent or doing so earlier also helps you research later techs. You have to make a choice. But why wait till riflemen if you have the opportunity?

 

[kniteowl]

I can use the 5 turns/15 units trick if I'm spiritual. But If I'm not, I won't go into anarchy for 15 unexperienced units. I just lose too much.

There's always gonna be an oppotunity cost in Civ isn't there, Making choices is what makes the game enjoyable. It's a balancing Act, Which is better?

15 Low Experience units in 5 turns for the cost of -1 pop and +3Unhappiness in all drafted Cities, slower research (because you delaying free speech) and 2 turns of anarchy but the oppotunity of knocking down your AI opponents sooner.

OR

Use that time to research Rifling and conquer them when your at a military advantage.

OR

just play as Monty Agg/Spi and you won't have either of those problems plus all your drafted Units get level 1 promotions

 

[UncleJJ]

why would you go to nationhood before even having gunpowder?
bureaucracy and free speech help you tech to the later techs. That's why I stick with them until I need to focus on leveraging an advantage (15 riflemen in 5 turns is enough of an advantage to clear the continent, often)

You have a different opinion on the worth of Nationhood because you have a different set of implicit assumptions from aelf, kniteowl and me. I think we all recognise that it might be better to adopt Free Speech or stay with Bureaucracy in certain situations, depending on your strategy and way the AI opponents are playing. But we can also envisage situations when Nationhood provides a very powerful way to develop our empires at that particular stage of the game. In fact we can all see how a particular strategy of early research of Gunpowder and Nationhood from Liberalism is perhaps the strongest strategy in that part of the game. Take for instance the situation where we don't have iron but have copper or horses that enable us to survive for a time. What strategy will get us out of that situation?

Nationhood is unique among civics. Generally I hold the opinion that Slavery is the most powerful civic in my games. But Nationhood is actually more efficient at producing hammers from food than Slavery, within its limitations.

One pop will normally give 30 base hammers from Slavery and a forge is the only building that can improve that (in the Middle Ages and Renaissance), making it 37 hammers per pop. So another way of looking at Nationhood is that a drafted Musketman, Jannisary etc. has an opportunity cost of 30 or 37 hammers rather than 80 hammers (so Nationhood saves upto 150 hammers per turn). And for especially good value a Rifleman and Redcoat costs only 30 or 37 hammers rather than 110. In a low food and low hammer economy like a CE or hybrid with lots of cottages that is a very efficient use of food.

One drawback of Drafting is that the units have half exp, but that is partly offset by the immediate production and the movement this turn rather than waiting until next (as with Slavery), which is especially useful for repelling the inept AI invasions from galleys. Also if you are using Slavery, in most your cities the best exp you can expect at that stage of the game is from barracks, Vassalage and Theocracy = 7 exp and hence 2 promotions. Nationhood replaces Vassalage so a unit produced with Slavery will then have 5 exp and 2 promotions while Drafting give 2 exp and 1 promotion. But as cabert says, the free promotions from Aggressive and Protective are added to the draftees, so for those Leaders the effective difference is much less.

There is another way of looking at the unhappiness from drafting. It is -3 happiness and it lasts 10 turns and runs in parallel with the -1 per use of Slavery. That means that it can be efficient to combine drafting with whipping in some cities to get troops fast and efficientlyand not upsettinmg the long term happiness... say turn 4 pop into a whipped rifleman and a drafted one and have -4 unhappiness for 10 turns and zero after that.

That's all I want to add to the discussion for now, but I can certainly see situations when Nationhood will help raise a powerful army quicker and more efficiently (in terms of food / population) at the cost of unhappiness. The strategy using Nationhood obviously has to deal with happiness issues but it is certainly worth considering in some situations like lack of iron, or perhaps an archipelago or if the civ has a powerful UU that can be drafted for a decisive advantage.

 

[cabert]

mace require iron or copper
you obviously misunderstood me, i do research gunpowder
I do build muskets and I do draft riflemen.

I just don't draft muskets if i'm not spiritual.

 

[kniteowl]

There is another way of looking at the unhappiness from drafting. It is -3 happiness and it lasts 10 turns and runs in parallel with the -1 per use of Slavery. That means that it can be efficient to combine drafting with whipping in some cities to get troops fast and efficientlyand not upsettinmg the long term happiness... say turn 4 pop into a whipped rifleman and a drafted one and have -4 unhappiness for 10 turns and zero after that.

If your gonna use Slavery and Drafting Simutaniously, Draft 1st and Whip 2nd, If you whip First You may accidently whip below 6 pop and be unable to draft because if you whip 4 pop at size 8 & 9 1st ( 9 - 4 = 5 < 6) obviously you can't draft now.

I always do Noob/Silly things like Going into Anarachy before finishing with the Whip and realizing thta I have to wait a turn beofre I can Whip a unit or a Building

Generally It'd be best to Draft with an Odd Number of Citizens in your City Or you may accidently miss out one on 1 extra pop needed to finish producing something

Eg1) 9 - 1 = 8, Max Number of Pop that can be whipped in a City is X/2 in this case 8/2 = 4pop = 120H

Eg2) 8 - 1 = 7 Max Number of Pop that can be whipped in a City 7/2 = 3 (rounded down) =90H therefore you have 30H less to produce watever

So therefore It's best to use the Draft and Slavery Combination with an Odd Number of Pop per City

It's also Best to eliminate the short term unhappiness problem with the minimum whip of 3 pop to balance out the unhappiness Problem from Drafting

Draft = -1pop + 3 Happiness
Whip= -3pop + 1 Happiness

Since you decrease you pop by 4, you also Decrease the 4 Unappy Faces from "The City Is TOO Crowded" in the short term I doubt you'd grow your 4 pop back in 10 turn though so you'd be unahppy free by the time you return to your original population.

BUT this would MAJORLY decrease your research if you did this in EVERY City.

Assuming you have 15 cities you'd get 30 Units using the Slavery & Drafting Combination and easily conquer your continent.

ON Higher Levels ( Emp and Greater) The Question is could you recover your Research during the industrial age before your AI Rivals on the Other Continent Out Tech you SO far you can't catch up.

Although This Tactic wouldn't be So bad on Pangaea becuase you'd just conquer your AI rival before they out tech you and even if they did you just overwhelm with numbers using the Drafting & Slavery Combaintion Tactics with your food surplus cities that can recover pop quickly.

 

[Wodan]

Additionally, I don't see how "An SE can make use of Nationhood very well, providing extra population (more specialists) and a potentially stronger military,"

Just backing up what Aelf said.

Almost all cities have more food than they can support citizens because of happiness or health limits. Even if you have just the oddball 1 food left over, this is still going to occasionally push that city into a starvation or unhealthy/unhappy situation. So why not turn that guy into a unit through drafting? It's more efficient than whipping.

With large cities, this is not going to happen very often. However, spread this out over a medium sized empire, and all you need is for 3 of your cities to be in this situation each turn. Not too farfetched. Plus, if you have a Globe city you're milking, you only need 2 more cities.

why would you go to nationhood before even having gunpowder?

+2 happiness.

Or, (I'm not sure here) because drafting a Mace is more efficient than whipping a Mace.

bureaucracy and free speech help you tech to the later techs.

Bureaucracy: only if you have a capitol with good commerce
Free speech: only if you're running a CE

Cabert, weren't you the one who said you always beeline Liberalism? Maybe the strategies you always use are dictating that you have to play a certain way, and this is resulting in a self-imposed limitation on yourself that you might not necessarily be aware of? Just wondering.

Wodan

 

[cabert]

Sure, liberalism giving me nationalism dictates me not to draft macemen

 

[Wodan]

Sure, liberalism giving me nationalism dictates me not to draft macemen

Oh, I was talking about the idea of going for Nationalism without delaying to go down the Paper/Education tree.

Wodan

 

[Landmonitor]

Just backing up what Aelf said.

Almost all cities have more food than they can support citizens because of happiness or health limits. Even if you have just the oddball 1 food left over, this is still going to occasionally push that city into a starvation or unhealthy/unhappy situation. So why not turn that guy into a unit through drafting? It's more efficient than whipping.

With large cities, this is not going to happen very often. However, spread this out over a medium sized empire, and all you need is for 3 of your cities to be in this situation each turn. Not too farfetched. Plus, if you have a Globe city you're milking, you only need 2 more cities.

Makes sense, a good way to optimize unhappy/unhealthy cities. I don't like having unhealthy or unhappy faces, as you may know. Also, if there is a barracks (there should be!), the unhapiness from the draft won't be a big deal... combined with HR, it's non-existant if you keep the soldier around. Nice.

 

[UncleJJ]

Oh, I was talking about the idea of going for Nationalism without delaying to go down the Paper/Education tree.

Wodan

A beeline for Nationalism could work nicely for Ragnar and Tokugawa once they have their UUs. Both are Aggressive so drafting their special macemen would not be too bad . Barracks and Theology would allow Berserkers or Samurai to be drafted with free combat and a suitable promotion (cover, shock, pinch even medic 1). Picking up Drama (which is on that path) as well for theatres, Globe Theatre and the cultural slider could allow a powerful early drafting strategy that could be run for long enough to generate a lot of good troops that could overrun superior technologies with sheer numbers.