AI decides to build defensive units

[Copernicus]

This is a problem I've noted after 1.21, but I thought it deserved it's own thread (also, I haven't found it anywhere else). The AI now preferentially builds Mech Inf and Infantry to Tanks and Cavalry. I think that the problem stems from the fact that the AI now uses those defensive units in an offensive capacity. Don't get me wrong, this is a good idea, but the AI still needs offensive units. For example, I just went to war with Babylon - they had 115 Mech Inf and NO tanks. I landed about 50-60 units with 20-30 artillery and let them kill off there own Mechs on my stack.

My thought is that the AI now values Mechs and Inf more than Tanks, which are purely offensive.....

I've noted others complaining about similar stacks of Infantry with no Cavalry.

Anyway, I think that this is a simple problem that could be fixed very easily in the next patch.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

I agree completely, it takes a lot of fun out of the game!

With 1.16/7 the Ai often had too few defenders, I often killed two then saw Cavalry and Longbowmen defend.

Now, there`s far too amyn. So Firaxis should try to find middle ground here!

 

[Dell19]

With stacks of 100 units, I would expect about 60 of them to be fast attacking units to claim cities and then let the defensive units move in to defend the cities...

 

[MrBiggBoy]

this is because in 1.21, infantry, riflemen, and mech infantry are classified under AI Offensive. Just uncheck boxes and enjoy hordes of M.A.

 

[Zouave]

I just checked the Editor. Yes, indeed, the braindead AI uses Infantry and M.I. in an offensive capacity because some doofus at Firaxis checked the box for "offensive". Sheez.

UNCHECK THAT BOX.

 

[MrBiggBoy]

told ya so~!

 

[etj4Eagle]

I do believe this change was mentioned in the readme file. Though what I think is needed is an option for offensive use that is between the yes this is an offensive unit and no this unit is purely defensive. Something that would allow the AI to pick off weak units nearby a defender that has some attack strength, but not try to build invasion forces out of that defender.

 

[Craterus22]

Yeah maybe there should be 4(or more) choices

Offensive

Defensive

Mobile (two or more moves)

Utility (near one to one ratios)


Build scripts should be modifiable also (perhaps by govt type?)

Despot - Huge offensive and/or mobile ratio to defense and/or utility

Republic - heavy Defensive and utility

Monarchy - heavy mobile and defense

Now I am not saying that is the only way to do it, but there really needs to be some way(or even a reason) for the AI to want to switch strategies over 6000 years...

 

[Kilroy]

Well I don't know about you guys, but when I go to war I bring along more infantry with me than anything else. Not to take cities, of course, but to secure them once my more attack-oriented units have taken them. Note that the AI usually has little problem sending a few attack-oriented units of its own my way once I've taken one of its cities. Usually three infantry in a newly taken city is the bare minimum (unless I've nearly conquered the civ).

I would HOPE that the offensive strategy just means that the AI will build more of them when it's planning to take several cities - what it will actually USE when it gets there (rifleman as opposed to cavalry, for instance), should be based on other factors, namely attack strength. On the other hand, if the AI relies too heavily upon what it is told in the editor, then we're likely to see it sending masses of its riflemen into unwinnable situations (like metropoli fortified with four riflemen each). Fortunately I don't think this is the case, for two reasons:

The AI rarely will engage in a round of combat it will very surely lose. Usually, I can move a highly defensible stack (such as two mech inf armies and 16 radar artillery) into enemy territory with little fear of harrassment.

I haven't witnessed, since I've been playing 1.21, masses of enemy riflemen throwing themselves at my cities. Sure the AI is bringing the infantry along with it, but it is still using the more attack-oriented units first.


What concerns me is your experience with Babylon building no tanks at all. That seems a little off. Although you should consider the possibility that the Babylon doesn't have access to aluminum (required for modern armor). Mech inf still have the third highest attack of any land unit in the game.

 

[Lab Monkey]

Infantry is what makes up the bulk of any army, I always disliked the way that the AI just built and attacked with tanks, but hey, this has already been discussed.
There should be a third option - tactical unit, a unit with multiple battlefield uses.

For now, I put infantry to defensive, but beefed up the cost of all armoured units, making them more exclusive to wealthy civs and encouraging the AI to use combined arms, and it does seem to work. I also gave the marines higher values, so now the AI does seem to build a more sensible ratio of units.

 

[Lt. 'Killer' M.]

Originally posted by Kilroy

The AI rarely will engage in a round of combat it will very surely lose. Usually, I can move a highly defensible stack (such as two mech inf armies and 16 radar artillery) into enemy territory with little fear of harrassment.

I haven't witnessed, since I've been playing 1.21, masses of enemy riflemen throwing themselves at my cities. Sure the AI is bringing the infantry along with it, but it is still using the more attack-oriented units first.

I have repeatedly seen the 1.21 AI send stacks of 50 Riflemen (huge map) or 20 Riflemen (standard) at a city defended by 1 Army (4 Infantry), 4 Infantry and 20 Cannons! All 50 die.

Problem here: Infantry is multi-role (A and D), Cavalry has the better A, but is single-role (A only)

AI reasoning: fewer units needed since multirole brings defender along. Exactly what a human does when he chooses Legionaries only for a war.

But:
- no retreat for Infantry/Riflemen, no fast moving away when hurt
- the AI loads up on Riflemen, then Infantry. Same A as Cavlry here, so situation gets worse!!!!

- Tanks as more expensive, so for the AI 3 infatry look better than 2 tanks........
and on and on.....

by this time, my games have ended - I throw elite Cavalry at the Infantry after heavy bombardment. End Game!

 

[DrJambo]

Yes, this is proving the most difficult part of my mod to balance...and because this part arrives late-game, it proves to be a longer wait to test changes out.

Rifleman, should definitely be set to defence only, otherwise cavalry just don't get used. Infantry, i'm not sure about, since they are better than cavalry albeit a little slower. Mech Infantry should also only be set to defence otherwise the AI fails to use Tanks and Modern Armour effectively.

Anyone tested the effects of these roles more effectively...

Also sometimes the AI gets seriously stuck in the ways of building paratroopers. Conversely, i haven't seen many marines. An effective balance of the various units is preferred, albeit with a subtle tendency towards Tanks and Modern Armour (solely for competitive reasons).

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

Actually the fact that the AI uses infantry in an offensive role means that if you don't have tanks yet (i.e. you still only have cavalry) it becomes extremely difficult to expel the AI from your lands!

Cavalry attack factor 6

Infantry defense factor 10.

What this boils down to is the AI doesn't use fast attack units as much as before but is harder to drive out of your lands. He can't capture your cities with the speed he did in 1.17f but OTOH he can't be driven out of your lands easily. Park a stack of infantry on one of your desperately needed resources, say iron or saltpeter, and your just about done!

:tank:

 

[Sullla]

I tend to disagree with what others are posting here...

Even under 1.16 and 1.17, the AI always built many, many more defenders than it did attackers. On a standard map, I commonly saw in most games 20 cavalry to 80 infantry, or 25 modern armor to 110 mech infantry. The difference, as I see it, is that now these defensive units are coming out and attacking as well, so it looks like fewer offensive units are being produced. In my opinion this makes the game harder, as the AI civs are definitely throwing more units at you in war now.

Both riflemen and infantry deserve to be checked as offensive units too, as riflemen attack as well as knights and infantry as well as cavalry. They do leave themselves rather open to bombardment however. And if this displeases you, it can always be changed in the editor.

 

[akinkhoo]

you know, i wanted to do a experiment on what IF ALL MILITARY UNIT are set of both defense AND offense.... surely this will confused the AI, but it could actually make the AI value the effectiveness the way human do "by RAW power"!

still, just a experiment....

 

[Zachriel]

Originally posted by akinkhoo
you know, i wanted to do a experiment on what IF ALL MILITARY UNIT are set of both defense AND offense.... surely this will confused the AI, but it could actually make the AI value the effectiveness the way human do "by RAW power"!

still, just a experiment....

Cool! Let us know how it turns out.

 

[godlearner]

Here is an idea! Set it differently based on civilization!

So for example, for Russians Riflemen and Infantry should br offensive units. They were known for massed human wave attacks.

For now this could be done by setting up UU with the same stats but different names.

 

[chiefpaco]

I agree it's a bit of a problem. Perhaps the AI looks at the rifleman & says, "I can get both offense & defense" & overlooks the cavalry. It's unfortunate, cause stacks of riflemen are much less intimidating than a mixed stack of riflemen/cavalry. OTOH, maybe it's better, since the AI won't be leaving the cavalry ahead of the riflemen.

1 other drawback is the riflemen/infantry stack is very slow. My current game (only 1 game since 1.21, albeit), I've had a few wars with Egypt where all it consisted of was their stack of 80-100 riflemen/infantry spending 12 turns heading to the back of my territory, declare peace, & spend 12 turns heading out.

Aside from that, I agree that another flag would be really good. For a modder, I wonder if the differences between offensive & defensive units could be exaggerated so no units have both flags checked.

 

[MrBiggBoy]

ya, i'm in a war right now where cav's can beat riflemen defenders, so i have to use infantry. it's going GREAt but really slow...... o well.. reseaching motorized transportation right now

 

[WarlordMatt]

In most of my games (I don't use patches cause I don't freaking know how to download ) the AI uses combos of both offensive and defensive units. They move them around in a 2-unit stack, say with a pikeman an a swordsman for example. I myself have adopted this strategy.